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Minimum Wage Thread

Traveler's Photo Traveler 12 June 2019 - 03:43 PM

Andy, I found the argument quite compelling that most all of the non employer-dependent benefit programs represent competition for wages, and thus raise them. This is why I sought an explanation of why that is wrong. I suppose we could take it to extremes, and recognize that we cannot let folks founder with no support at all, and thus lower competition for wages even more. So we put in the benefit programs to make sure folks didn't starve to death. And in so doing, we set the wage floor.

How could employers somehow band together to suppress wages (not talking about non competes)? The issue with inflating their own wages has a LOT to do with how we treat unearned income. It biases folks to promote shareholder gains, often very short-sightedly. A LOT of these problems can be attributed to POG tax policy. That is where folks should focus.
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D. C. Sessions's Photo D. C. Sessions 12 June 2019 - 03:54 PM

 Traveler, on 12 June 2019 - 01:12 PM, said:

Calling it bull does not advance the discussion. I was looking for a coherent argument why that article is wrong.

It's the classic right-wing argument I heard yesterday while getting my car's AC fixed.

Thesis: if it weren't for welfare (etc.) people would be lining up to take his sub-minimum wage agricultural work because it's that or starve. Since they have alternatives to starvation (even if it means hot-bunking eight to a room and eating at soup kitchens) they're just slacking for that sweet, sweet free money.

If you're a junior enlisted member of the US armed forces, there's a very good chance your family is getting by with the help of food stamps and some other not-on-the-DOD-budget support. Absent that support, you would have little choice but to take some other work. That support really should be billed to the DoD. The same goes for WalMart: they can get someone to take their crap jobs because they can do so and not starve immediately and might even get halfway decent healthcare.

Because the competition is not "no work and layabout watching TV," it's "work for Costco" or "work for Trader Joe's" or any of a score of companies that actually pay a living wage, provide good health benefits, etc. WalMart is not anyone's first choice, but the government support for the low wages lets them be in the competition compared to employers that are farther away with poor public transit, or that require relocation, or that insist on continuing training, or ...
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Traveler's Photo Traveler 08 July 2019 - 11:08 AM

Great link. A simple solution. Tax unearned income the same as earned. Solves a LOT of issues.
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D. C. Sessions's Photo D. C. Sessions 08 July 2019 - 11:58 AM

 Traveler, on 08 July 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:

Great link. A simple solution. Tax unearned income the same as earned. Solves a LOT of issues.

And, strangely enough, something that we have Reagan on record as favoring.
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LFC's Photo LFC 08 July 2019 - 12:22 PM

 D. C. Sessions, on 08 July 2019 - 11:58 AM, said:

And, strangely enough, something that we have Reagan on record as favoring.

St. Ronnie? Say it ain't so!
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pnwguy's Photo pnwguy 08 July 2019 - 12:31 PM

 LFC, on 08 July 2019 - 12:22 PM, said:

St. Ronnie? Say it ain't so!
The Pope of Pennsylvania Avenue needs to revoke his sainthood. He wanted Amnesty.

"'Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall' -- see he wanted open borders and to allow those socialists to invade good (i.e. white Christian) countries. Think of how many East German rapists he let in!"
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George Rowell's Photo George Rowell 10 July 2019 - 01:51 AM

The Independent headline is "Ethnicity pay gap: lowest-earning groups paid a fifth less than white British workers"

Looks like things are biased against non-white workers, but read on and you find that white workers are at a large pay disadvantage of up to 15-30% against ethnic Indians and Chinese. Looks like an example how to spin a headline to confirm non-white prejudice and fuel resentment.

I suggest a new headline. 'White Workers paid less than ethnic Indian and Chinese". FYI all are well above the minimum 8.21 pound/hr wage.

"https://www.independ...s-a8997556.html"
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LFC's Photo LFC 10 July 2019 - 10:05 AM

 George Rowell, on 10 July 2019 - 01:51 AM, said:

Looks like an example how to spin a headline to confirm non-white prejudice and fuel resentment.

Rage sells, objective information doesn't. Rupert Murdoch built an empire on that fact.
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pnwguy's Photo pnwguy 16 July 2019 - 02:22 PM

 LFC, on 10 July 2019 - 10:05 AM, said:

Rage sells, objective information doesn't. Rupert Murdoch built an empire on that fact.
And Dumpster built a presidency on that fact. Well, Uncle Vladimir sure helped too...

I supposed "built" is inaccurate. Destroyed might be a better choice of words.

I'm extremely fond of the kind of candidate that Mayor Pete is. But I worry that he's too bright and logical for the mass of American voters that have mainlined a steady diet of Survivor, The Bachelor, and Family Feud. Idiocracy is upon us.
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golden_valley's Photo golden_valley 16 July 2019 - 02:37 PM

 pnwguy, on 16 July 2019 - 02:22 PM, said:


I'm extremely fond of the kind of candidate that Mayor Pete is. But I worry that he's too bright and logical for the mass of American voters that have mainlined a steady diet of Survivor, The Bachelor, and Family Feud. Idiocracy is upon us.

The same was said about Obama. I'm sure lots of people don't want some eggheaded liberal in office even if he is a veteran.
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LFC's Photo LFC 17 July 2019 - 12:13 PM

 golden_valley, on 16 July 2019 - 02:37 PM, said:

The same was said about Obama. I'm sure lots of people don't want some eggheaded liberal in office...

Especially if it's a brown egg?
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pnwguy's Photo pnwguy 17 July 2019 - 12:30 PM

 LFC, on 17 July 2019 - 12:13 PM, said:

Especially if it's a brown egg?
Like a "gay egg" is going to be accepted better?

Actually, that base will argue there is no such thing as a gay egg. It wasn't "laid that way". It's been taken over by Satan and needs conversion therapy
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LFC's Photo LFC 17 July 2019 - 02:17 PM

 pnwguy, on 17 July 2019 - 12:30 PM, said:

Like a "gay egg" is going to be accepted better?

Actually, that base will argue there is no such thing as a gay egg. It wasn't "laid that way". It's been taken over by Satan and needs conversion therapy

And we all know how "conversion therapy" works...

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Traveler's Photo Traveler 28 July 2019 - 07:37 AM

 Traveler, on 08 July 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:

Great link. A simple solution. Tax unearned income the same as earned. Solves a LOT of issues.
A little bit more about cap gains. That indexing thing would be great, so long as taxed as ordinary income.
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D. C. Sessions's Photo D. C. Sessions 28 July 2019 - 09:21 AM

 Traveler, on 28 July 2019 - 07:37 AM, said:

A little bit more about cap gains. That indexing thing would be great, so long as taxed as ordinary income.

Yeah -- the excuse for discounted rates for capital gains used to be inflation. The big problem with that is that it still taxes inflation, but gives a discount for short-term gains compared to long-term ones. Perverse incentive.

With late 20th century technology and data there's no excuse to have a fixed rate for gains, just index the basis. Thud -- back to St. Ronald's "income is income" simplification, with the stupidity of taxing inflation removed.
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baw1064's Photo baw1064 28 July 2019 - 04:39 PM

To be sure, the interest on bank accounts, CDs, etc. should be treated the same way. Right now it's taxed as ordinary income with no inflation indexing, which essentially imposes a higher tax rate on people with enough assets to have a bank account but not a stock portfolio.
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D. C. Sessions's Photo D. C. Sessions 28 July 2019 - 06:15 PM

 baw1064, on 28 July 2019 - 04:39 PM, said:

To be sure, the interest on bank accounts, CDs, etc. should be treated the same way. Right now it's taxed as ordinary income with no inflation indexing, which essentially imposes a higher tax rate on people with enough assets to have a bank account but not a stock portfolio.

The system is working as intended.
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LFC's Photo LFC 08 August 2019 - 02:26 PM

More than ever where you start helps determine where you end up.

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The American dream promises that anyone can make it if they work hard enough and play by the rules. Anyone can make it by pulling themselves up by their “bootstraps.”

Baloney.

The truth is: In America today, your life chances depend largely on how you started – where you grew up and how much your parents earned.

The American dream promises that anyone can make it if they work hard enough and play by the rules. Anyone can make it by pulling themselves up by their “bootstraps.”

Baloney.

The truth is: In America today, your life chances depend largely on how you started – where you grew up and how much your parents earned.

So as inequality of income and wealth has widened – especially along the lines of race and gender – American children born into poverty have less chance of making it. While 90% of children born in 1940 grew up to earn more than their parents, today only half of all American adults earn more than their parents did.

And children born to the top 10 percent of earners are typically on track to make three times more income as adults than the children of the bottom 10 percent.

The phrase “pulling yourself up by the bootstraps” itself is rubbish. Its origins date back to an 18th-century fairy tale, and the phrase was originally intended as a metaphor for an impossible feat of strength.

Other countries understand that the family you’re born into as well as the social safety nets and social springboards you have access to play large roles.

Children born poor in Canada, Denmark, or the United Kingdom – nations without America’s degree of inequality, nations which provide strong social safety nets and public investments – have a greater chance of economic success than children born poor in America.

Individuals in those countries are blamed less for their personal failures and credited less for personal successes.

So, why is America still perpetuating the fallacy of the self-made individual? Because those in power want you to believe it. If everyone thinks they’re on their own, it’s easier for the powerful to dismantle unions, unravel safety nets, and slash taxes for the wealthy.
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