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The Trump Phenomenon


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#21 golden_valley

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 12:21 PM

Here's an interesting back story on Trump's presidential aspirations. Some of it is conjecture and armchair psychoanalysis, but the story of his activities in furtherance of his aspirations tells us something about his motivation.

#22 Sinan

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 12:57 PM

View Postcmk, on 13 March 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

You know, I am among the first to scream "Godwin" when Nazi comparison appear, but I have to say that the more I watch this rolling Trump catastrophe, the more it does remind me of Nazi Germany. Not to the same extent or degree, by far. But it reminds me of it more than anything else I have seen in the country in my lifetime.

http://www.clickonde...-at-trump-rally

It's absolutely sickening. And the fact that this guy even has a chance to become president makes me want to move back to Canada. If I had known what a large percentage of this country is comprised of boorish, ignorant, bigoted assholes, I likely never would have come here in the first place.

The "watermelons on the White House lawn" stuff in 2008, the Idiot from Wasilla having a chance to become VP, talk radio hate blather, Fox News lie-a-thons, on and on.. and despite all that, this Trump stuff is still 10 levels beyond. The right has become a complete national embarrassment.

Well....it is sad indeed to admit that our nation is filled with very angry and stupid people. I am going to go out on a limb here but I think it has at its source religion. We are a very religious people and if you listen to these various sects, they all preach fire and brimstone and eternal damnation. Europe gave this stuff up long ago and become truly secular while enjoying the traditions and monuments to an earlier time. We have yet to mature.
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#23 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:02 PM

View Postindy, on 13 March 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

The universe is a cruel place.

How apt, then, that it was a Scottsman who observed that the best-laid plans of sewer rats and men oft gang agley.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#24 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:04 PM

View Postcmk, on 13 March 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

You know, I am among the first to scream "Godwin" when Nazi comparison appear, but I have to say that the more I watch this rolling Trump catastrophe, the more it does remind me of Nazi Germany. Not to the same extent or degree, by far.

How far had the Bavarian version gone in its first year?
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#25 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:07 PM

View Postgolden_valley, on 13 March 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

In my imaginings I can see Cruz and his people as puppet masters, provoking Trump and Trump supporters to make voters turn away from Trump leaving Cruz the last man standing.

Joke's on him, then -- it seems that the voters are lapping it up.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#26 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:09 PM

View PostAnBr, on 13 March 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

This the reason that you want to call out the trivialization of the Holocaust with Hitler/Nazi accusations. So that when it does come along the accusations are not meaningless.

Also the reason why the puppetmasters of the proto-fascists encourage calling everyone to the left of Pat Buchanan "Hitler."
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#27 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:11 PM

View PostSinan, on 13 March 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:

Well....it is sad indeed to admit that our nation is filled with very angry and stupid people. I am going to go out on a limb here but I think it has at its source religion.

America's Original Sin wasn't religion, although religion was soon enough drafted into supporting it.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#28 cmk

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:12 PM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 13 March 2016 - 03:04 PM, said:

How far had the Bavarian version gone in its first year?
Give me a break. Go read some history of what Hitler was writing and doing long before he got into power. Trump's a bigot and an opportunist, but he's no Hitler.
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#29 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:18 PM

View Postcmk, on 13 March 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

Give me a break. Go read some history of what Hitler was writing and doing long before he got into power. Trump's a bigot and an opportunist, but he's no Hitler.

I agree on your conclusion [1], but am nitpicking lately -- one year is early days, and Trump has made far more rapid progress towards power than Hitler did ... so far. I'm well aware that precocity is not the same as potential.

[1] It's hard to type with fingers crossed.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#30 cmk

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:48 PM

My comment was more abrupt than I meant it to be. But I just really don't see the same "environment" here that they had in Germany in the 1930s, even if there's enough disturbing behavior to warrant caution.
Charles M. Kozierok - Administrator, TalkRadioSucks.com

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher


"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#31 MSheridan

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:48 PM

I think it's even simpler than that. Most of Europe is much closer together. There is a city/rural divide, but there aren't nearly as many vast expanses of countryside far from cities. Political conflict here is largely driven by that divide.

#32 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 04:22 PM

View Postcmk, on 13 March 2016 - 03:48 PM, said:

My comment was more abrupt than I meant it to be. But I just really don't see the same "environment" here that they had in Germany in the 1930s, even if there's enough disturbing behavior to warrant caution.

Agreed on both counts. For values of "caution" that include making damned sure that it can't happen here.

ETA: I should have worded that more carefully -- not endorsing your first sentence, Charles. I enjoy spirited discussion, as long as it's carried out with respect (see elsewhere on Holy Warrior thinking etc.) Which is a delightful characteristic of this little cafe'/pub you run, Sir.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#33 Banty

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 04:26 PM

View Postindy, on 13 March 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

Trump now 'considering' paying the legal fees of the man who sucker punched the protester at his rally.

He also requested that law enforcement arrest protesters at his rally. He's annoyed they just 'put them outside'.

Non violence being met with violence and jail. Where have I seen this film before?

At some point, he'll be deemed to have crossed over the line to incitement to riot.

Now that would be interesting.
"It can happen here. It is happening here. No election has been more important in my lifetime." - Andrew Sullivan, 7/21/2016
It did happen here. - Banty 11/9/2016

#34 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:00 PM

View PostBanty, on 13 March 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

At some point, he'll be deemed to have crossed over the line to incitement to riot.

Now that would be interesting.

FSVO "interesting." The prosecutor who brings that charge is going to have to be something. Stupid, fearless, suicidal, incredibly partisan, ..., or just plain the kind we're cynical enough to think are only found in movies. But no two ways about it, "interesting."
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#35 indy

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:16 PM

View PostBanty, on 13 March 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

At some point, he'll be deemed to have crossed over the line to incitement to riot.

Now that would be interesting.

It's the Republican party that has been inciting the riot. They have been indulging in rhetoric that has been building to a crescendo for more than a decade. Insane, over-the-top rhetoric that has been designed to instill fear and loathing. Trump just happened to come along at the peak and ride the wave.

It's not stupid people or religion. It's irresponsible politicians.

#36 Rue Bella

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:33 PM

Quote

It's not stupid people or religion. It's irresponsible politicians.

It' not just one ingredient or the other - it takes both the non-stop flow of lies from politicians, talk radio, the pulpit etc. directed at people who are either born followers, or those who lack critical thinking skills and believe them.
What is wrong with these people? ~ PG

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#37 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:47 PM

View Postindy, on 13 March 2016 - 05:16 PM, said:

It's the Republican party that has been inciting the riot. They have been indulging in rhetoric that has been building to a crescendo for more than a decade. Insane, over-the-top rhetoric that has been designed to instill fear and loathing. Trump just happened to come along at the peak and ride the wave.

I think there's plenty of credit to share for this shitstorm. Not least, it falls on fertile ground that was carefully prepared for more than a century before Goldwater, Nixon, Falwell, etc. started cultivating it. To change metaphors, though, the Party has been lovingly piling rocks on that slope for decades and Trump just saw that it was time for a few well-pitched pebbles to bring it all down.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#38 Practical Girl

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:57 PM

To be sure, DC, but as always- I look to the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine in '87 as the true starting line of the current craziness. As soon as that happened, the right wing moved in, large scale and where nobody "cared"- radio, first. They did it (shockingly) within science- the science of the brain. Oh- and the best marketers they could possibly find, those who embraced everything known about marketing- also a science- to plump the vertical market.

Religion appears to be at the heart, but I disagree with those who think it was the "major" thing. Rather, it was the part of the brain that accepts religion, which is also where other base emotions- like hate and love and addiction- are regulated. Whatever- love God, or HATE Barack, Bernie, Hillary et al- to the susceptible, it's all the same.
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#39 Rue Bella

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 06:16 PM

Quote

...and Trump just saw that it was time for a few well-pitched pebbles to bring it all down.

I agree that he tossed the pebbles to bring it down, but I am not sure it was planned. I don't give him credit for intentionally starting the slide.. but he is a nimble shape-shifter and has been riding the crest as the hill continues to crumble. He was more in the right spot at the right time.

I don't believe when he started his campaign he thought he had a chance. I am still not sure he really wanted to be president. But now that he's come this far, his ego is all in on the attempt.
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#40 Banty

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 06:17 PM

View Postindy, on 13 March 2016 - 05:16 PM, said:

It's the Republican party that has been inciting the riot. They have been indulging in rhetoric that has been building to a crescendo for more than a decade. Insane, over-the-top rhetoric that has been designed to instill fear and loathing. Trump just happened to come along at the peak and ride the wave.

It's not stupid people or religion. It's irresponsible politicians.

Well, does that actually rise to incitement to riot - as in *that* statement/*that* riot in a prosecutable sense? I'm not talking generalities.

Like someone isn't tagged for speeding unless he's - speeding, this much, for that long, undeniably speeding, on this road, at this time, cited for speeding.

Trump is getting close to where it's that riot, at that time, in that place, directly inflamed that that statement.

The rate he's going, some time it will actually be that. Looks like it's a federal crime, one that would be awkward, to say the least, for feds to press. I was hoping (is it?) it would be a state statute.

https://www.law.corn...de/text/18/2102
"It can happen here. It is happening here. No election has been more important in my lifetime." - Andrew Sullivan, 7/21/2016
It did happen here. - Banty 11/9/2016





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