867 replies to this topic

[drdredel]

AnBr, on 25 January 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

The anti-vaxxer movement began as a scam by Andrew Wakefield.



And a 2011 medical journal called the vaccine–autism connection as "the most damaging medical hoax of the last 100 years".

https://en.wikipedia...ine_controversy

The really sad thing is that the parents that chose to not vaccinate their children have left their children vulnerable for life. As serious as these diseases are for children, contracting them as adults is even more serious. So not only have they endangered the population at large, they are endangering their children potentially for life.

But you understand that this is a choice being made based on an evaluation of perceived possible risk factors, right? Do I roll the dice on measles or do I roll the dice on mercury destroying my child's central nervous system?

That was the very real perceived choice back in the 90s. And no, there wasn't any effective and trustworthy way to verify that that *wasn't the choice, and yes there *was mercury in the vaccines at the time. So, today's parents are indeed making a very foolish decision because today there is indeed enough trustworthy (read: undeniable) information that this is a safe practice. But that wasn't true 20 years ago.

[J-CA]

There was plenty of trustworthy and undeniable information, thimerosal was developed in the 1930's, the problem was not that information's existence, it was the prevalence of non-trustworthy information. Frankly today's parents are making just as foolish a decision as 1996's parents were because finding, reading, and understanding this information is simply not something most people can do effectively - people suck at this stuff.

The whole mercury in vaccines thing appeals to people who are distrustful of corporations and people who are distrustful of government. You don't even need to be one of lunatic fringers to get caught up in it. Just like GMOs, just hearing about it makes you wary of it. Go back a little further you can have the same debate about floridation (indeed, some are still having it).

drdredel, on 23 January 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

I don't trust the CDC (and given their recent incompetence relating to Ebola that doubt seems reasonable)..

If there is one US government institution that has demonstrated consistent competence it is the CDC.

drdredel, on 23 January 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

Anway... as a perfect example of another issue that is now on the fore in a VERY similar way, consider GMOs. Our government insists that they're 100% safe. Ooodles of other respectable organs of research contradict that position from "we just don't know" to "they're actually quite dangerous".

Please cite me some of this "they're actually quite dangerous" research because I have never seen it, assume that the "dangerous" here is dangerous to people that eat them, not dangerous to the habitat of Monarch Butterflies.
What does the science actually say? Pretty much: "We can't find a reason why it would be dangerous, we can not demonstrate that it is dangerous, but we can't categorically prove that it is not dangerous." At this point trillions of meals have been eaten with GMO products in them or animals fed GMO grains in them.

[nuser]

LFC
We have all the vaccinations required in this household .I want to retain the right to choose The chicken pox vaccination was developed after I had already had it -chicken pox-. Lining up in school for shots
a classmate named Lise was also a recipient and she died in her sleep as a result . It left an everlasting sense of sorrow and distrust . Some vaccines can be highly effective like tuberculin -sorely wanted in Denmark , during W.W.2 , but as I understand it, is now treatable with antibiotics. To lump me in with anti vaccine is an insult , but then again who am I to argue with an expert? Thought you might take a look
Why is the first MMR vaccination given at the age of 15 months?

The MMR vaccine is given at the age of 15 months to ensure that the effect is not inhibited by the congenital antibodies. The first 6-12 months following birth, the infant is protected by antibodies to measles, mumps and rubella which are transmitted from the mother during pregnancy. If the MMR vaccine is given too early in life, these antibodies may render the vaccine ineffective .

[drdredel]

J-CA, on 25 January 2015 - 02:42 PM, said:

There was plenty of trustworthy and undeniable information, thimerosal was developed in the 1930's, the problem was not that information's existence, it was the prevalence of non-trustworthy information. Frankly today's parents are making just as foolish a decision as 1996's parents were because finding, reading, and understanding this information is simply not something most people can do effectively - people suck at this stuff.

and always will suck at this stuff, and will only suck at it more and more as the science becomes harder and harder to parse and we have to defer more and more to experts (who themselves only understand small parts of the puzzle). To say that a lot of our choices will have to be made almost on "faith" (strong emphasis on "almost" there) is not an exaggeration.

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The whole mercury in vaccines thing appeals to people who are distrustful of corporations and people who are distrustful of government. You don't even need to be one of lunatic fringers to get caught up in it. Just like GMOs, just hearing about it makes you wary of it. Go back a little further you can have the same debate about floridation (indeed, some are still having it).

If ever there was a nail head that you were looking to hit... there it was. This sums up my entire point (from which all my other gibberish stems). Why in the world would *anyone be "trustful" of governments and/or corporations?? The history of governments doesn't fill one with much confidence in their trustworthiness. Between general incompetence, personal greed, and outright malfeasance, competent consequential government is very much the exception and not the rule, and while modern Western governments are a lot better than the historic average, that's a long way from me injecting stuff into my children with confidence - because the government claims it's safe! We just appointed Cruz to oversee NASA!!! So yeah... it's not the lunatic fringe that doesn't trust the government... I'd argue it's the naive fringe that does!

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If there is one US government institution that has demonstrated consistent competence it is the CDC.

and yet there's the recent Ebola scandal (or would you argue that they did the best they could there?)

Anyway... being "the best" in a field topped largely by mediocrity doesn't instill a ton of confidence in me.

Quote

Please cite me some of this "they're actually quite dangerous" research

I was referring to general danger, not specifically dangerous to eat. I've read (can't look for it now) that many ecologists are extremely concerned about the way GMOs "infect" non GMO crops in their vicinity... they're basically impossible to contain within the fields in which they're planted. So... if nothing else there's the concern that if we realize 30 years from now that there's something wrong with GMO crops it will be too late to undo the damage. But yes... I get that it's generally safe... my point wasn't to say GMOs aren't safe, my point was that it's extremely hard to glean what's what from the noise on the internet.

[J-CA]

drdredel, on 25 January 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

...Between general incompetence, personal greed, and outright malfeasance, competent consequential government is very much the exception and not the rule, and while modern Western governments are a lot better than the historic average, that's a long way from me injecting stuff into my children with confidence - because the government claims it's safe! We just appointed Cruz to oversee NASA!!! So yeah... it's not the lunatic fringe that doesn't trust the government... I'd argue it's the naive fringe that does!

This is silly.

drdredel, on 25 January 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

and yet there's the recent Ebola scandal (or would you argue that they did the best they could there?)
Anyway... being "the best" in a field topped largely by mediocrity doesn't instill a ton of confidence in me.

You mean the total absence of a scandal?
IIRC you are a musician as well as a software developer, in both fields I imagine you can distinguish the difference between perfection and competence.
When it comes to public health western governments have spent the last 100 years pretty much kicking ass and taking names.

[LFC]

nuser, on 25 January 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

LFC
We have all the vaccinations required in this household .I want to retain the right to choose The chicken pox vaccination was developed after I had already had it -chicken pox-. Lining up in school for shots a classmate named Lise was also a recipient and she died in her sleep as a result .

This is the illogical stance of anecdote over data. It's the vaccine equivalent of not wearing a seat belt because you heard that somebody was "thrown free" once.

nuser, on 25 January 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

Some vaccines can be highly effective like tuberculin -sorely wanted in Denmark , during W.W.2 , but as I understand it, is now treatable with antibiotics.

It's a lot more complicated than a normal run of antibiotics.
http://www.tbfacts.o...-treatment.html

nuser, on 25 January 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

To lump me in with anti vaccine is an insult , but then again who am I to argue with an expert? Thought you might take a look
Why is the first MMR vaccination given at the age of 15 months?

The MMR vaccine is given at the age of 15 months to ensure that the effect is not inhibited by the congenital antibodies. The first 6-12 months following birth, the infant is protected by antibodies to measles, mumps and rubella which are transmitted from the mother during pregnancy. If the MMR vaccine is given too early in life, these antibodies may render the vaccine ineffective .

And yet six children under 12 months were just infected in the most recent localized outbreak. That tells me that the passage of those antibodies isn't always effective. Perhaps the mother didn't get the booster and never developed an immunity. Also there are studies that show the vaccines are likely more effective at 15 months.

All of your reasoning does is show ignorance of herd immunity. You may not be Jenny McCarthy level anti-vax, but you've already spun out piss poor reasoning concerning children under 12 months, adults who have been vaccinated, TB treatment, and a scare tactic of "YOU COULD DIE!" That's a heapin' helpin' of denial and illogic, and I'd tell any parent with a child to stay away from you.

[LFC]

Nuser, are you by any chance in California? It appears the anti-vax types live in clusters, further endangering their children, other people's children (even if vaccinated), and adults.

[nuser]

LFC
Just want the right to choose ! Did you know that during the Inquisition Jews were hauled out of their homes and burned at the stake , because they were responsible for the
Plaque ? You have shown that same attitude . Good bye . CMk , i noticed , you are still around , please take me out with good wishes.

[Progressive whisperer]

A. Flounce! Ladies and gentlemen we have a classic flounce.

[Traveler]

Right to inflict is more like it. Haven't seen a flounce like that since grade school.

If there is anything that shuts up the denialists, it's LFC's chart. That makes the climate trends look positively benign.

[HockeyDon]

Wow. A little disagreeable push-back and that's your go-to?

ETA: I'm actually glad I didn't turn tail and run during the extensive gun-rights debates, despite some of the more aggressive posters on those threads.

[Progressive whisperer]

Darn it LFC, why did you have to go and call for the summary execution of anti-vaxers?

I too would like a right to choose. I want to choose that my tax dollars don't go to lining the pockets of the top executives in the military industrial complex. I want the right to choose to drive a car without the hassle of registration or maintaining a license. I'm sure some want the choice of sending pre-teens to work full time to help support the family. We weep for the lost freedoms....

[LFC]

nuser, on 26 January 2015 - 12:54 AM, said:

LFC
Just want the right to choose !

But your choice has the potential to impact the health and possible life of many others. That brings us back to "your rights end where someone else's begins." This isn't a case of cancer or MS or blood transfusions, things that have no impact on others. This is a case where your choice can cause others to be infected even before you realize the disease is in you or your child.

nuser, on 26 January 2015 - 12:54 AM, said:

Did you know that during the Inquisition Jews were hauled out of their homes and burned at the stake , because they were responsible for the
Plaque ? You have shown that same attitude .

You've just compared a position of overwhelming evidence (lack of compliance with vaccines allows diseases to come back and endangers those too young to have been vaccinated and those for whom the vaccine wasn't effective) with a completely unfounded position (Jews were responsible for the plague). I can't even remotely take that seriously.

[LFC]

Progressive whisperer, on 26 January 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

Darn it LFC, why did you have to go and call for the summary execution of anti-vaxers?

Hmmmmm. Jenny McCarthy's next role?

[drdredel]

LFC, as a (sort of) Jew I'm wildly offended by your inability to compare all negative things that ever befell Jews to all things across the board, irrespective of if they're things or not.

This reminds me that I do indeed have a joke ready for every occasion.

https://twitter.com/...634752149372928

Nuser, if you're still reading this, you're being silly.

[D. C. Sessions]

drdredel, on 23 January 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

I promise you that no one wants to bring back measles!

Actually, if you pay attention to this issue you discover that there are quite a few people who insist that measles plays an essential role in childhood development. Which is why they have measles parties, chicken pox parties, etc. for their children.

As for who to trust, I refer you to the challenge I once issued in 1997 [1]. It's been out there for almost twenty years, and so far no takers.

[1] And many times since, updated to include additional diseases.

[D. C. Sessions]

drdredel, on 24 January 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

This was my point about the CDC and GMOs. If I had faith in our government's ability (desire) to be honest with me and not to do things at the behest of Monsanto (or pfizer) I'd just take them at their word.

How about African researchers working on African plants to solve African problems, no US agencies, corporations, etc. involved? Or South Asian GMOs to introduce patent-unencumbered GMOs that have single genes [1] transferred from one variety of a plant species to another variety to provide resistance to a disease that's resulting in people dying of hunger?

All well and good for first-world people to go all purity-obsessed for themselves -- especially when they're not the ones who are watching their children starve or be crippled for life by deficiency diseases.

[1] because the entire genomes have been sequenced for all three varieties

[drdredel]

D. C. Sessions, on 26 January 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

Actually, if you pay attention to this issue you discover that there are quite a few people who insist that measles plays an essential role in childhood development. Which is why they have measles parties, chicken pox parties, etc. for their children.

As for who to trust, I refer you to the challenge I once issued in 1997 [1]. It's been out there for almost twenty years, and so far no takers.

[1] And many times since, updated to include additional diseases.

Ok, but again this falls squarely into the realm of familiarity. When I was a kid in Russia I spent two weeks at a Chicken Pox camp in order to suffer through Chicken Pox. The idea there wasn't to torture children (they treated us quite kindly actually). The point was to make sure a child *has the illness as a child rather than contracting it as an adult (at which point it's a much tougher and more dangerous illness).

I assume most adults today had chicken pox and so their recollection is "it wasn't all that bad and it's NATURAL".

Personally I'm entirely unsold on the chicken pox virus for the following reason.

So, all the children of today get the vaccine and are immune from chicken pox for the present. Now 50 years goes by. Are all these people constantly getting boosters their entire lives? If not, then are we not going to face a massive adult chicken pox problem over the next few decades? I imagine someone has probably given this some thought, right? I haven't seen anyone discuss this potential side-effect. Are there published theories about the long term herd immunity side-effects to chicken-pox - if masses of people fail to get boosters?

[Progressive whisperer]

D. C. Sessions, on 26 January 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

Actually, if you pay attention to this issue you discover that there are quite a few people who insist that measles plays an essential role in childhood development. Which is why they have measles parties, chicken pox parties, etc. for their children.

As for who to trust, I refer you to the challenge I once issued in 1997 [1]. It's been out there for almost twenty years, and so far no takers.

[1] And many times since, updated to include additional diseases.

You mean they deliberately get their children together with contagious children to get them sick?

I hate nanny-state views on a lot of stuff - see the "free-range" parenting post last week - but I would definitly consider this a form of child abuse!

Nice to know we really aren't superior to those countries that have epidemics of Ebola and HIV because many use superstition instead if seeking medical attention when confronted with symptoms.

[D. C. Sessions]

nuser, on 24 January 2015 - 10:50 PM, said:

Babies inherit antibodies
from mothers , that boosts their immune system against
measles mumps and rubella , but starts to wean around
12 months .

Only if Mama has high antibody titers herself, which doesn't happen when the disease is not in wide circulation. Also, the antibody transfer is mostly via breast milk, not in utero. That kind of secondary immunity wanes around six months as the infant gut becomes less permeable.

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So much for killing babies.

And yet babies do contract measles and die of it. Kinda hard to mistake that particular outcome.

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Five people in Disneyland
were fully vaccinated and yet fell prey to measles, and
that is a lot out of 74 .

Say what? Something north of 90% of the people exposed were immunized. And yet only the unvaccinated (less than 10% of the population) ends up being 93% of the infected? This, from a disease that has one of the highest transmissibilities known?

Do the math: 740 people exposed. 74 unvaccinated, 666 vaccinated. 5 vaccinated actually get the disease, for a rate of 0.75% vs. 100% for the unvaccinated (use other numbers if you like, the results are similar.) Not a hard choice if you ask me.