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The urban-rural divide


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#21 AnBr

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 05:38 PM

View PostSinan, on 12 November 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

Rural America is losing people to urban areas, the phone companies tell me this all the time. One way to keep them in town is to bring fiber to each home. Spending on infrastructure targeted at rural America can put people to work but it has to be sustained not just one shots. The other thing is that industrial farming has really impacted the small producer.

So Billy Joe Bob is going to get a high tech job if he can just get enough fiber?
"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#22 JackD

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 05:42 PM

Enough fiber for Billy Joe Bob (not to mention Charley, Ralph, and Stuart) will do it? Can't hurt but it won't do it.

#23 baw1064

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 05:50 PM

View PostAnBr, on 12 November 2018 - 05:38 PM, said:

So Billy Joe Bob is going to get a high tech job if he can just get enough fiber?

Well, Larry The Cable Guy can have a livelihood keeping the fiber in working order.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#24 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 08:49 PM

View PostTraveler, on 12 November 2018 - 03:26 PM, said:

But for white voters, the answer to that question is split by education level. Fifty-eight percent of college-educated whites this year say that America has gotten better since 1950, while 57 percent of non-college-educated whites say that it’s gotten worse. When President Trump says “Make America great again,” the againis instructive. He’s capitalizing on the nostalgia that non-college-educated white voters have for America’s past. “That harkening back to a supposed golden age where things were better has a really, really strong appeal for whites without a college degree,” Jones said.

They're also longing for a time when a high-school dropout who could spin a wrench, eight hours a day, 200+ days a year, could earn a middle-class income. And, no, I don't mean "middle class" in the sense that we've redefined "middle class" to include people whose entire three-job family income barely pays the rent on a two-bedroom apartment an hour each way from work.
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#25 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 07:23 AM

View PostAnBr, on 12 November 2018 - 05:38 PM, said:

So Billy Joe Bob is going to get a high tech job if he can just get enough fiber?

Maybe not. On the other hand BJB's kids are less likely to be parked on the siding of the educational system, which is rapidly going broadband.
Rural Kids Face an Internet 'Homework Gap.' The FCC Could Help

Note that, once again, the rural Republican base is being screwed over by the people they elected to represent their interests.
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#26 Traveler

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 08:15 AM

View Postbaw1064, on 12 November 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

But isn't this just looking at the same issue from the opposite direction? As DC points out in a couple places in this thread, it's very hard to hold insular attitudes when you are living and working with people of widely differing backgrounds. For instance, if you live in a large metro area. Or on a college campus. So the difference could be explained either in terms of education or in terms of racial attitudes. The two correlate, but which is the cause and which the result?
The issues are definitely correlated. And it is not spurious correlation.
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#27 AnBr

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 08:50 AM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 13 November 2018 - 07:23 AM, said:

Maybe not. On the other hand BJB's kids are less likely to be parked on the siding of the educational system, which is rapidly going broadband.
Rural Kids Face an Internet 'Homework Gap.' The FCC Could Help

Note that, once again, the rural Republican base is being screwed over by the people they elected to represent their interests.

Yeah, but their kids won't get indoctrinated by... *shudder* science and facts. It's a feature, not a bug.
"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#28 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 08:59 AM

View PostTraveler, on 13 November 2018 - 08:15 AM, said:

The issues are definitely correlated. And it is not spurious correlation.

Up-close exposure of pretty much any kind (some exceptions apply) will have that effect. Urban environments, education, and highly integrated workplaces [1] all have the effect. Others are possible, too, but not so obvious.

[1] The military, for instance. We might be headed for a reversal of the longstanding attraction of the military for the gun-worshipping rural folk.
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#29 AnBr

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 09:50 AM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 13 November 2018 - 08:59 AM, said:

The military, for instance. We might be headed for a reversal of the longstanding attraction of the military for the gun-worshipping rural folk.

A lot of that is because that is where so many that enlist have been from those areas.
"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#30 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 09:55 AM

View PostAnBr, on 13 November 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

A lot of that is because that is where so many that enlist have been from those areas.

And as those areas become more and more determined to remain insular they may be less and less tolerant of sending their young off to the military, just as they've become less and less tolerant of sending them to universities.
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#31 LFC

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 10:46 AM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 13 November 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

And as those areas become more and more determined to remain insular they may be less and less tolerant of sending their young off to the military, just as they've become less and less tolerant of sending them to universities.

Gotta' keep 'em bein' good Christians and that means living in a bubble. It's Dreher's hysteria about "The Benedict Option" on a broad scale. Nothing like not having to engage with those you've already decided are sinful and Satan's tools then interacting with them and finding out that they really are (*GASP!!!*) decent human beings who aren't out to get you.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#32 golden_valley

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 12:38 PM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 13 November 2018 - 08:59 AM, said:

Up-close exposure of pretty much any kind (some exceptions apply) will have that effect. Urban environments, education, and highly integrated workplaces [1] all have the effect. Others are possible, too, but not so obvious.

[1] The military, for instance. We might be headed for a reversal of the longstanding attraction of the military for the gun-worshipping rural folk.

In general DC is right. However there will always be a group of people who are exposed either through college or the military who will hightail it back home vowing never to leave again. I see it among my small Midwestern town classmates who did go to college or the military. They weren't particularly sheltered in the uber religious homeschool way. They just feel more comfortable at home. They met and maybe even worked with a few minority racial or ethnic class types. Those were "good guys" but they still see the group as a mass of unknown, questionable people that they don't want to be around.

#33 LFC

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 01:41 PM

View Postgolden_valley, on 13 November 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

In general DC is right. However there will always be a group of people who are exposed either through college or the military who will hightail it back home vowing never to leave again. I see it among my small Midwestern town classmates who did go to college or the military. They weren't particularly sheltered in the uber religious homeschool way. They just feel more comfortable at home. They met and maybe even worked with a few minority racial or ethnic class types. Those were "good guys" but they still see the group as a mass of unknown, questionable people that they don't want to be around.

When you raise children to be fearful of the unknown and ensure they aren't independent then they often stay that way.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#34 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 08:51 AM

View PostLFC, on 13 November 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

Gotta' keep 'em bein' good Christians and that means living in a bubble. It's Dreher's hysteria about "The Benedict Option" on a broad scale. Nothing like not having to engage with those you've already decided are sinful and Satan's tools then interacting with them and finding out that they really are (*GASP!!!*) decent human beings who aren't out to get you.

In other words, become the 21st Century's Amish.
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#35 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 08:55 AM

View PostLFC, on 13 November 2018 - 01:41 PM, said:

When you raise children to be fearful of the unknown and ensure they aren't independent then they often stay that way.

The trouble is that "often" isn't necessarily often enough to maintain the population (much less grow it like mice.) Which, from an economic perspective (not to mention an environmental one) is great, but from their perspective of creating a nation of people just like them (think Christian Dominionism) is not going to work very well.
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#36 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 02:49 PM

Oh, BTW: to the original point, there has been a rather understated argument going on that with modern telecom it makes NO sense to have the entire upper-level Federal bureaucracy located in the DC metro MSA. Start spreading the work around to places (like the Rust Belt) which could use some jobs and where it's cheap enough to live that you don't have to pay excessive salaries for people to live in crap housing too far from work. When Federal jobs start moving into Ohio and Michigan etc. it'll be a lot harder to campaign there on drowning the Government in a bathtub.

Who knows? People might get more of a sense that "the Government" actually is them working for them.
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#37 baw1064

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 03:39 PM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 14 November 2018 - 08:51 AM, said:

In other words, become the 21st Century's Amish.

Except the Amish are fine with doing their thing and letting other people do theirs, rather than freaking out that they can't force the whole world to follow their directives.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#38 LFC

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 03:40 PM

View Postbaw1064, on 14 November 2018 - 03:39 PM, said:

Except the Amish are fine with doing their thing and letting other people do theirs, rather than freaking out that they can't force the whole world to follow their directives.

F***ing libruls.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#39 pnwguy

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 07:05 PM

View PostLFC, on 14 November 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

F***ing libruls.
Yeah, what kind of Real 'Murcan doesn't believe in war?
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#40 baw1064

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 10:59 PM

View Postpnwguy, on 14 November 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

Yeah, what kind of Real 'Murcan doesn't believe in war?

Well, there's that religious sect that Nixon (supposedly) belonged to.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss





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