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#41 pnwguy

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:11 AM

So I'm not one who gives into the kinds of conspiracy theory thinking, of murky, behind-the-scenes manipulations. And I fight against any biases against Dumpster I already have to try and stay objective. But Chait's reasoning has it's merit.
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#42 golden_valley

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 01:54 AM

View Postpnwguy, on 10 July 2018 - 12:11 AM, said:

So I'm not one who gives into the kinds of conspiracy theory thinking, of murky, behind-the-scenes manipulations. And I fight against any biases against Dumpster I already have to try and stay objective. But Chait's reasoning has it's merit.

Makes more sense than the Clintons killed Vince Foster theory....

#43 pnwguy

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 09:04 AM

Last week's pageant must have been a talent competition for Putin fluffers.
"All glory to the HypnoTrump, or else..."

"It all makes sense when you remind yourself that the GOP is no longer a political party but turned into an organized crime family"

"I hope to live long enough that the name Trump is reviled as much as the name Hitler or Stalin"

#44 DCoronata

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 09:57 AM

On topic, not mentioned yet...
https://www.cnbc.com...e-easiest-.html
"“The U.K.’s situation has been going on for a long time so I have NATO, I have the U.K. that is in some sort of turmoil, and I have Putin,” he said. “Frankly, Putin may be the easiest of them all. Who would think that?”
Yes, who'da thunk we'd have a president so fucking imbecilic that he'd suggest a meeting with his minder/our enemy Putin would be easy.

You want to make it seem like you're not connected to him via strings, don't say stupid shit like this.

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#45 Craig

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 01:21 PM

View Postpnwguy, on 10 July 2018 - 12:11 AM, said:

So I'm not one who gives into the kinds of conspiracy theory thinking, of murky, behind-the-scenes manipulations. And I fight against any biases against Dumpster I already have to try and stay objective. But Chait's reasoning has it's merit.

Quote

What is missing from our imagination is the unlikely but possible outcome on the other end: that this is all much worse than we suspect. After all, treating a small probability as if it were nonexistent is the very error much of the news media made in covering the presidential horse race.
It seems like Chait is suggesting that because a number of pundits and pollsters mistakenly thought a single event unlikely, that we should now reconsider the likelihood of all events one might consider unlikely. Or maybe just those relating to politics or to Trump.

Quote

The unfolding of the Russia scandal has been like walking into a dark cavern. Every step reveals that the cave runs deeper than we thought, and after each one, as we wonder how far it goes, our imaginations are circumscribed by the steps we have already taken. The cavern might go just a little farther, we presume, but probably not much farther. And since trying to discern the size and shape of the scandal is an exercise in uncertainty, we focus our attention on the most likely outcome, which is that the story goes a little deeper than what we have already discovered.
This is exactly right - reasonable assumptions fill in the gaps between the known, maybe guess a little farther or a little worse than what has been proven. Conspiracy theories fill in the gaps with more guessed information than known, the actors are much more insidious than they appear, and the situation is much more dire than what we can prove. This is exactly what the rest of this article goes on to describe.

I find some of the evidence and some of the inferred links compelling, but I seriously doubt the conclusion that Trump is literally a pawn of Putin because of some incredibly significant dirt Putin has on him. More likely that there are some shady business dealings between Trump or his associates and Putin / his associates along with some shared interests and a heaping helping of incompetence on the part of the Trump administration.

Quote

Ever since the fall of 2016, when Republican Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell privately turned down an Obama-administration proposal for a bipartisan warning to Russia not to interfere in the election, the underlying dynamic has been set: Most Republicans would rather win an election with Putin’s help than lose one without it.
This sort of intellectual dishonesty really undercuts Chait's (already shaky) arguments. The senate passed a bill nearly unanimously to impose more sanctions on Russia after interference in our elections. Just because there was almost certainly collusion between the Trump campaign and Russians does not mean that the entire Republican party is ok with Russia deciding the results of our elections. Republicans denying that their party's leader has any involvement in certain nasty business is not the same as all those Republicans being a part of that nasty business - yet another conspiratorial train of logic.

#46 golden_valley

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 02:12 PM

View PostCraig, on 10 July 2018 - 01:21 PM, said:


More likely that there are some shady business dealings between Trump or his associates and Putin / his associates along with some shared interests and a heaping helping of incompetence on the part of the Trump administration.

I tend to agree with your assessment but I think there is also a heaping helping (great use of the phrase) of Trump's being highly susceptible to suggestions that appeal to his authoritarian nature. Putin's folks can plant ideas in the very fertile ground of Trump's personality. I think that's where Chait is sort of in the right direction in terms of Trump's various statements going back to the 80's echoing or reflecting Putin's attitudes and thoughts about NATO and the US.

#47 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 02:32 PM

View Postgolden_valley, on 10 July 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

Putin's folks can plant ideas in the very fertile ground of Trump's personality.

That's the nicest way I've ever seen someone describe "shit for brains."
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#48 andydp

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 05:10 PM

New analysis from Hamilton 68 on the "Walkaway" movement.

Top Themes

Updated on July 10, 8:41 AM


The #walkaway movement, a campaign highlighting alleged discord among the left, got a boost this week from accounts linked to Russian influence operations. The first use of the #walkaway hashtag from accounts monitored on Hamilton 68 was noted in early June (a few weeks after the grassroots campaign began), but engagement remained relatively low throughout the month. Activity spiked on July 2, when Hamilton 68 noted 73 unique tweets using #walkaway, and roughly another 50 using related campaign hashtags (e.g. #walkawaymovement). The late engagement suggests Kremlin-oriented accounts are trailers rather than leaders of the campaign, but the high-level of current engagement indicates an effort to astroturf support for the movement and hijack the narrative. This includes several monitored accounts that have changed their handles to include the hashtag, or that have shared their own supposed walkaway moments. The campaign also received a direct boost from Russian propaganda outlets RT and Sputnik, both of which ran stories on the movement



dashboard.securingdemocracy.org/

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#49 JackD

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 10:07 PM

They know! The Senate today voted 97-2 in favor of a resolution supporting NATO. They know he's in the bag for Putin and they're trying to stop him. Not much good news lately but the fact that they know and voted that way is a start. They know and if they don't support Mueller now, their shame will be permanent in the histories of the times. They know!

#50 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 05:35 AM

View PostJackD, on 10 July 2018 - 10:07 PM, said:

They know and if they don't support Mueller now, their shame will be permanent in the histories of the times. They know!

They're all in on pretending that we're not destroying the Earth's climate, dooming billions of people for short term gain. And you think they're going to care about the judgment of history when they're dead?
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#51 JackD

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 06:51 AM

Won't care about the judgment of history? Probably right except there is a certain something about treason.

#52 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 07:11 AM

View PostJackD, on 11 July 2018 - 06:51 AM, said:

Won't care about the judgment of history? Probably right except there is a certain something about treason.

"For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

Or, if you prefer Franklin to Harrington, "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

How about Montrose:

Quote

He either fears his fate too much,
Or his deserts are small,
That dares not put it to the touch
To gain or lose it all.

They've gone all in on minority rule. Backing out now is the worst of both worlds.
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#53 JackD

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 02:46 PM

OK, got another theory for why they voted that way?

#54 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 03:00 PM

They're with Trump only so far as he gets them what they want. When and to the extent that he becomes a liability, they won't -- and NATO is laying golden eggs.
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#55 JackD

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 03:59 PM

What I was suggesting, clumsily no doubt, was that he is becoming a liability and the NATO stuff is illustrating that.

#56 AnBr

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 05:36 PM

The Russian bots are back — and now they’re fueling the #WalkAway propaganda attack on Democrats
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#57 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 07:14 PM

View PostAnBr, on 11 July 2018 - 05:36 PM, said:


I wonder if they've done the research to determine that the bandwagon effect (EVERYONE is doing it!) outweighs the effect of moving the balance of complacency.
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#58 andydp

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 08:16 PM

View PostAnBr, on 11 July 2018 - 05:36 PM, said:


Got one of those memes from a friend (one of the Trumpbots). I just posted this article. As we have experienced the only people who will read it are the ones that know about this already. All others feel its "fake news".
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

Rev Martin Luther King Jr.


Obamacare took my guns away and put me in a FEMA reeducation camp.

Anonymous

If you've got public schools paid for by taxpayers, you're in a socialist nation. If you have public roads paid for by taxpayers, socialist nation. If you've got public defense (police, fire, military, coast guard) paid for by tax dollars, socialist nation. If you're in a nation that has nationalized or localized delivery of services that are not paid for by users alone, you're in a socialist nation- the only question is how socialist. As I see it, we have the military pay to protecting the shipping lanes for our fuel needs which makes up very socialist. In a capitalist nation, the people supplying the oil would pay for their own defense force.


DC Coronata

#59 Probabilistic

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 09:20 AM

Quote

He’s representing Russia. I’m representing the United States. So, in a sense, we’re competitors. Not a question of friend or enemies. He’s not my enemy, and hopefully someday, maybe he’ll be a friend. It could happen, BUT I just don’t know him very well

Someone who attacks the very foundation of our country, is conspiring continuously to undermine our defining values is not our enemy, whereas the free press is the "enemy of the people". This is the orange hairball the American political system coughed up.

#60 golden_valley

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 08:15 PM

Having an interesting time watching excerpts of the House Committee hearing with Strzok. Completely unimportant to this whole thing but striking is the hairstyle and scruffy growth on Trey Gowdy's face. Not TV ready in my view, what was he thinking?





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