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David Hearts Ann


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#1 cmk

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 09:30 AM

I know, I know... but this is SO ridiculous it deserves its own thread.

A few choice bits:

David Frum said:

Bravo for Ann Coulter.

That's not a sentence you might expect to read in this space, and I'm sure my endorsement will please nobody less than Ann herself. That said: bravo.

Is it possible that Frum is so out of touch with reality that he actually thinks this piece is a big shocker?

I mean, maybe it would have surprised me if the old David Frum had said it. You know, the guy who at least pretended he was an independent thinker when it served his purposes.

But the new David Frum who's in the tank for Mitt Romney? Why would this be a surprise? Not only did it not shock me to see the headline, I had a pretty good idea what would be in the article before I even opened it: Coulter supports Romney, and Frum supports Romney, so Frum is cheering Coulter.

This is breaking news?

Best part of the article is Frum quoting Coulter:

Ann Coulter said:

No one is claiming that the Constitution gives each person an unalienable right not to buy insurance.

To which Frum responds gleefully:

David Frum said:

Right! True! And really—who doesn't want insurance? When we see tens of millions of people going without insurance—and thereby either suffering much worse health outcomes or else dumping their costs onto others (or both)—we're not seeing a principled aversion to coverage. We're seeing a crisis of affordability. Gov. Romney tried to address that crisis, admittedly with only imperfect success, but with more success than all those other governors who did not try at all.

Nobody is using constitutional grounds to oppose Obamacare? Again -- what planet have these people been on for the last two years?! That's the entire basis for the court challenges surrounding it: that the individual mandate is unconstitutional because of EXACTLY what Coulter says: claims that the Constitution gives each person an unalienable right not to buy insurance.

There isn't even any point in digging up quotes or references to support this. There are so many that I wouldn't even know where to start.

To make matters even worse, the constitutional argument is the ONLY thing that Frum's mancrush Romney has to try to paint Obamacare as being evil while Romneycare is just fine:

Mitt Romney said:

"One thing I would never do is to usurp the constitutional power of states with a one-size-fits-all federal takeover."

These people are insane.
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#2 andydp

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 09:40 AM

I respectfully disagree: they are not "insane". They must be reading surveys where the majority of Americans approve of the ACA (Obamacare). Right now, I feel sorry for the Ron Paul supporter that "yelled let him die" he's likely very close to a stroke.

Remember Orwell's 1984 where "newspeak" is the rule ? What was bad then is good now, enemies are now friends etc etc. No mention of the past; it all went down into the hole, never to be seen again.

The dissonance from the right is really getting loud. A bit like a third rate garage band with a setting of 12 on the amp.
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#3 Ari

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 10:38 AM

View Postcmk, on 02 February 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Nobody is using constitutional grounds to oppose Obamacare? Again -- what planet have these people been on for the last two years?! That's the entire basis for the court challenges surrounding it: that the individual mandate is unconstitutional because of EXACTLY what Coulter says: claims that the Constitution gives each person an unalienable right not to buy insurance.

Charles, that is not what the court challenges are about. The position is that Congress' power to pass laws regulating commerce does not include the power to require commercial behavior by people who would not otherwise be making commercial behavior. i.e. the federal government doesn't have the right to make you buy insurance. It is a question of federalism, not a question of individual rights. If they win, the states would still be able to pass their own laws similar to Romneycare, which would not be the case if you had a federal right protecting you from this.

#4 cmk

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 11:28 AM

Ari, thanks for the correction. After thinking about it, I do see the difference between having a right not to be forced to purchase insurance and a right against the federal government doing it.

That said, I doubt most voters will really understand -- or even buy -- such a distinction. I still think Coulter's comment is rather ludicrous on its face, as it suggests that people aren't opposing Obamacare on constitutional grounds. And the rest of it is a mishmash of confusing flip-flopping positions on social medicine, individual mandates, and pretty much everything else.
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"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher


"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#5 davisss13

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 11:37 AM

Hi all. First post.


Honestly I had hopes that the GOP would reject the crazies, listen to the Frums and Bartletts... but I guess that is out of the question.

Of course I'm from Illinois and our GOP congresscritters have always been moderate like Bob Michael and Ray LaHood. No flame-throwing culture warriors.

#6 Ari

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 11:49 AM

View Postcmk, on 02 February 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

That said, I doubt most voters will really understand -- or even buy -- such a distinction.

You're certainly right about that. The republican base seems opposed to any mandate, not just a federal one. That is why Romney has had a struggle differentiating Obamacare from Romneycare. They are very different issues from a constitutional standpoint, but I don't think most people would know or even care about that.

#7 indy

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 11:52 AM

I still don't understand why this wasn't structured as a tax break. Purchase health insurance and cut your taxes by $X. Just like if I make other purchases with tax incentives.

#8 cmk

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 11:54 AM

Davis... welcome!

I'm not sure Frum and Bartlett really belong in the same category together any more. It doesn't appear that the Frum of today is even listening to the Frum of a year ago.

As for Coulter, how many months ago was it that she flatly declared that if Romney was the candidate that Obama would beat him? Not many.
Charles M. Kozierok - Administrator, TalkRadioSucks.com

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher


"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#9 primrose

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 12:03 PM

First welcome Daviss13.

Then Charles, yes they are insane. When Newt Gingrich says he is fighting as an outsider, a non-washington elite and is not laughed off the stage , that's insanity.

When Mr. Romney says the poor are all right because they have a safety net, that's insane. Most poor people would thrill to have the struggles of the middle class.

It's a matter of understanding reality. As I've mentioned my husband got laid off, but there is a vast deal of difference between the situation we are in, worrisome but still quite secure for now and some person who maybe got two weeks severance if they were lucky, and they weren't really making it on what they earned when they did work.

If they wanted to fulfill the stereotype of uncaring, fat cat, Republicans they couldn't do any better. Sometimes truth is stranger than propaganda.

#10 Ari

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 12:40 PM

View Postindy, on 02 February 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

I still don't understand why this wasn't structured as a tax break. Purchase health insurance and cut your taxes by $X. Just like if I make other purchases with tax incentives.

My kneejerk reaction is to think it is because it was written by Pelosi, et al, and they don't think about the Commerce Clause in the way the republicans do. The whole thing would have been a lot easier if they had written it as a tax incentive.

#11 cmk

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 02:09 PM

The comments on this article at The Daily Beast are breathtakingly stupid. It's like a train wreck that keeps getting worse as you watch it.

I have to look back and laugh at those who claimed the quality of comments wouldn't change upon Frum's move to DB.

Meanwhile, Sullivan again tosses Frum a charity link -- notice how Frum never reciprocates? -- while simuntaneously dismantling once again the lame attempts of some on the right to pretend that Romneycare and Obamacare are so, so different.
Charles M. Kozierok - Administrator, TalkRadioSucks.com

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher


"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#12 jdd_stl1

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 02:18 PM

Charles: Frum is like a scab for you. You just can't leave it alone and you keep picking at it.
How's your blood pressure?
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#13 cmk

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 02:27 PM

Heh. I know. :)

My BP is actually a pretty consistent 110/70. Thanks for asking. :D

While we're on the subject... how does a so-called "intellectual" post this with a straight face?

Quote

Okay, point taken, it's very unwise for a politician to express unconcern for the poor.

But question: is this fuss only about messaging? Aside from watching his words, is there anything you want a politician actually to do for the poor? Other than take away their food stamps, I mean?

Boggle.
Charles M. Kozierok - Administrator, TalkRadioSucks.com

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher


"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#14 wileedog

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 02:33 PM

View PostAri, on 02 February 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

My kneejerk reaction is to think it is because it was written by Pelosi, et al, and they don't think about the Commerce Clause in the way the republicans do. The whole thing would have been a lot easier if they had written it as a tax incentive.

I think it's because the target of the mandate is the people who aren't buying insurance now and really need to be for the insurance companies to accept dropping pre-condition clauses - young healthy people. With them forced to pay into the system healthcare companies could relax restrictions on higher risk people.

Unfortunately young, single people just a few years into their careers are probably also the hardest to incentivize with tax breaks IMO. Unless the tax break flat out made them a profit many still wouldn't be bothered to get insurance for something they don't use much.

#15 Gray Area

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 02:49 PM

So, let’s see if I’ve got this straight: Romneycare good. Obamacare bad.

#16 indy

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 03:22 PM

View Postwileedog, on 02 February 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

I think it's because the target of the mandate is the people who aren't buying insurance now and really need to be for the insurance companies to accept dropping pre-condition clauses - young healthy people. With them forced to pay into the system healthcare companies could relax restrictions on higher risk people.

Unfortunately young, single people just a few years into their careers are probably also the hardest to incentivize with tax breaks IMO. Unless the tax break flat out made them a profit many still wouldn't be bothered to get insurance for something they don't use much.


I actually suspect it is because they didn't want to get attacked on the tax issue.

If everybody in the US was taxed an additional $800 (or whatever the fine is), and then they get an $800 deduction on their taxes if they bought health insurance, that is functionally the same as penalizing someone $800 for not buying health insurance. It's simply a tax and tax policy question with lots of precedent and no constitutional issues that I can see. However, the political meme that would be latched onto would be democrats are 'raising taxes' to pay for Obamacare.

#17 cmk

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 04:59 PM

Just wanted to say hi to wileedog for delurking. :)
Charles M. Kozierok - Administrator, TalkRadioSucks.com

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher


"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy





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