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Republicans Looking Bad So They Turn to Abortion ... Again


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#61 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 12:46 PM

View Postgolden_valley, on 15 May 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

These hard core fanatics just handed Democrats an issue that will mobilize moderates. Polling consistently shows that people support abortion in some cases. This Alabama law forecloses it entirely.

There's a world of difference between replying to an opinion poll and going to the polls.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
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"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
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#62 LFC

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 08:54 AM

Andrew Sullivan writes that Liz Warren is the one going after this topic properly and that means legislatively instead of going into a defensive crouch and refusing to talk about it at the federal level.

Quote

Elizabeth Warren is not afraid. Today, she set out a proposal to integrate Roe v. Wade’s provisions for access to abortion into federal law. She even framed her proposal this way: Congress Can Protect Choice. And she’s right. Congress can legislate on abortion; the matter can be settled through politics, rather than through a strained parsing of the Constitution by the courts. Political arguments can be made, and countered. Voters can go to the polls to support candidates who will vote for such a law, which will make any previous Supreme Court ruling irrelevant.

This is the process called politics. And America, for 46 years, has tried to keep abortion out of it. It’s encouraging to see Warren jump into the fray to bring legislative politics back to the subject — and to call the right’s bluff on taking that approach. It’s amazing it has taken this long.

Every other major democracy treats abortion this way: through the legislative branch hammering out a compromise. Ireland, an outlier, because its Constitution barred legal abortion outright, just voted overwhelmingly to amend the Constitution and legislate the right to choose. Sometimes there are nuances: In Britain, for example, on questions that can come down to a personal conscience, like this one, there is no party-line whip. But no one in Western Europe seems to believe that public debate should be irrelevant to the question.

In the United States, of course, this is currently not how things work. Voters have been largely sidelined on the question since 1973. The Supreme Court decided the issue, so there is little or no incentive for political players to hammer out any kind of compromise and every incentive to use the issue to rally the party bases, demonize ideological opponents, and enact extreme measures, knowing nothing will come of them, and no real accountability will follow.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#63 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 09:23 AM

View PostLFC, on 18 May 2019 - 08:54 AM, said:

Andrew Sullivan writes that Liz Warren is the one going after this topic properly and that means legislatively instead of going into a defensive crouch and refusing to talk about it at the federal level.

And we all know the counter: "Federalism! States' Rights!"
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#64 JackD

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 09:28 AM

There are some problems with Warren's approach. If Roe v. Wade is the law, neither the states nor the federal government can negate it. If Roe v. Wade is reversed, there is no good legal reason to think a federal statute could preempt state statutes on the subject. It is in the area of "police power" traditionally reserved to the states. As a generality, federal law is not permitted to preempt state criminal law.

#65 Probabilistic

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 09:51 AM

View PostLFC, on 18 May 2019 - 08:54 AM, said:

Andrew Sullivan writes that Liz Warren is the one going after this topic properly and that means legislatively instead of going into a defensive crouch and refusing to talk about it at the federal level.

Andrew's reasoning is addled by Catholicism, quite a common occurrence for him.

Instead of the fundamental right of people to have agency to govern their own bodies, he would rather have the whimsies of political cycles determine that. Would he approve of the equal marriage rights of gays to be similarly determined by politics? How about the right to vote: can politics be allowed to practically nullify it by placing severe and directed constraints?

#66 AnBr

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 09:46 PM

A GOP lawmaker used the phrase ‘consensual rape’

Quote

“Let’s just say someone goes out and they’re raped or they’re sexually assaulted one night after a college party — because most of my rapes were not the gentleman jumping out of the bushes that nobody had ever met,” Hovis said. “That was one or two times out of a hundred. Most of them were date rapes or consensual rapes, which were all terrible.”

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

— Carl Sagan


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

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Second inaugural address January, 1937

#67 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 07:12 AM

$HERSELF passes along the observation that since a woman (or girl) who is raped and becomes pregnant, under the new laws getting an abortion will put her in jail for the rest of her life (assuming she doesn't make it to 110 or so). In which case, what's the disincentive to offing the SOB who raped her?
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#68 LFC

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Posted 20 May 2019 - 04:26 PM

With a real potential for Roe v Wade to be shitcanned and wildly restrictive abortion bans popping up in red states a number of Republicans are suddenly hemming and hawing over their support for banning abortion nationwide. Mitt Romney, being Mitt Romney, of course holds an opinion that is firmly planted in jello.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#69 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 20 May 2019 - 06:56 PM

View PostLFC, on 20 May 2019 - 04:26 PM, said:

With a real potential for Roe v Wade to be shitcanned and wildly restrictive abortion bans popping up in red states a number of Republicans are suddenly hemming and hawing over their support for banning abortion nationwide. Mitt Romney, being Mitt Romney, of course holds an opinion that is firmly planted in jello.

Wait -- I thought they were all about "States' Rights" and "the equal sovereign dignity of the States?"
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#70 Bact PhD

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Posted 20 May 2019 - 07:01 PM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 20 May 2019 - 06:56 PM, said:



Wait -- I thought they were all about "States' Rights" and "the equal sovereign dignity of the States?"
Dontcha know? That’s right up there with “home rule” —only applicable when it benefits them. If it moves The Agenda Item du jour forward to exercise rule from Washington (or Tallahassee, or Raleigh, or...) to pre-empt laws they dislike, so be it.
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#71 AnBr

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 03:04 AM

Posted Image
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

— Carl Sagan


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#72 Beelzebuddy

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 11:15 AM

Posted Image
Fear Sells!

Cui bono?

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#73 LFC

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 11:38 AM

View PostBeelzebuddy, on 21 May 2019 - 11:15 AM, said:

Posted Image

In Alabama a.k.a. "them good ole days."
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#74 LFC

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 11:42 AM

Speaking of Alabama (with a huge thumbs up to comic genius Tom Lehrer)...


" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#75 golden_valley

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 11:44 AM

View PostBeelzebuddy, on 21 May 2019 - 11:15 AM, said:

Posted Image

This misses the point though. The rabid anti abortion people are saving "innocent" lives. The innocence is quickly lost...some say it's lost at birth.

#76 Rue Bella

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 02:29 PM

It's not as if black folks are people anyway.

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#77 pnwguy

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 11:39 PM

View PostRue Bella, on 21 May 2019 - 02:29 PM, said:

It's not as if black folks are people anyway.
Easy solution. Get those black folks to incorporate!
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#78 Beelzebuddy

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 10:06 AM

View Postpnwguy, on 21 May 2019 - 11:39 PM, said:

Easy solution. Get those black folks to incorporate!
/Chef's kiss
Fear Sells!

Cui bono?

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#79 HockeyDon

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 02:35 PM

View PostProbabilistic, on 18 May 2019 - 09:51 AM, said:

Instead of the fundamental right of people to have agency to govern their own bodies, he would rather have the whimsies of political cycles determine that.

My wife and I were discussing the Alabama bullshit and this came up. It's a little bit of a mystery why this isn't expounded upon more and more. Unless I'm missing it, the conversation about a person's bodily autonomy seems to be something that is simply ignored. If a law is passed that a 6 week embryo is a person, what that law is really stating is that one person has primacy over the body of another without their consent, (ETA) indeed, without consent AND without the explicit request of the person claiming primacy.

Now move that over from the realm of abortion conversations into the realm of medical procedures. Imagine this phrase being uttered, "The President is far more important than other citizens and, since he needs a new kidney, we'll be forcing matched donor into giving him one."

Or am I too far down the slippery slope for anyone else to see this as part of the conversation?
Well, fuck.

How can I be expected to distinguish BS from reality when so much of my reality is utter BS?!

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#80 golden_valley

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 03:31 PM

View PostHockeyDon, on 23 May 2019 - 02:35 PM, said:

My wife and I were discussing the Alabama bullshit and this came up. It's a little bit of a mystery why this isn't expounded upon more and more. Unless I'm missing it, the conversation about a person's bodily autonomy seems to be something that is simply ignored. If a law is passed that a 6 week embryo is a person, what that law is really stating is that one person has primacy over the body of another without their consent, (ETA) indeed, without consent AND without the explicit request of the person claiming primacy.

Now move that over from the realm of abortion conversations into the realm of medical procedures. Imagine this phrase being uttered, "The President is far more important than other citizens and, since he needs a new kidney, we'll be forcing matched donor into giving him one."

Or am I too far down the slippery slope for anyone else to see this as part of the conversation?

Not too far down the slope. If the government can prohibit abortion I suspect it can come up an argument to mandate abortion.





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