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The death of Christianity in the U.S.


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#141 golden_valley

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Posted 09 April 2019 - 12:48 PM

View PostLFC, on 09 April 2019 - 12:41 PM, said:

WTF is wrong with these "pastors" that they think they have no limits? As more of the videos surface the people can see these fakes.

And what's wrong with people that support these "pastors" with their presence and money? Do they no sense of self, no ability to know when they are being used and abused?

#142 Rue Bella

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Posted 10 April 2019 - 12:03 AM


Quote

As more of the videos surface the people can see these fakes.

'True believers' simply do not care. Tell them anything and they will believe it. Most of them voted for Trump too....
What is wrong with these people? ~ PG

No longer politically correct

#143 LFC

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 10:10 AM

Those identifying as "no religion" are now equal in number to Catholics and Evangelicals with all 3 coming in at about 23% of the U.S. population. I see this as helping to make our nation a better place.

Quote

For the first time "No Religion" has topped a survey of Americans' religious identity, according to a new analysis by a political scientist. The non-religious edged out Catholics and evangelicals in the long-running General Social Survey.

Ryan Burge, a political scientist at Eastern Illinois University and a Baptist pastor, found that 23.1% of Americans now claim no religion.

Catholics came in at 23.0%, and evangelicals were at 22.5%.

The three groups remain within the margin of error of each other though, making it a statistical tie. Over 2,000 people were interviewed in person for the survey.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#144 LFC

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Posted 02 May 2019 - 08:25 AM

Good summary of the things the evangelicals are doing to drive people out of their churches.

Quote

If the Catholic Bishops, their Evangelical Protestant allies, and other Right-wing fundamentalists had the sole objective of decimating religious belief, they couldn’t be doing a better job of it.

Testimonials at sites like ExChristian.net show that people leave religion for a number of reasons, many of which religious leaders have very little control over. Sometimes, for example, people take one too many science classes. Sometimes they find their faith shattered by the suffering in the world – either because of a devastating injury or loss in their own lives or because they experience the realities of another person’s pain in a new way. Sometimes a believer gets intrigued by archaeology or symbology or the study of religion itself. Sometimes a believer simply picks up a copy of the Bible or Koran and discovers faith-shaking contradictions or immoralities there.

But if you read ExChristian testimonials you will notice that quite often church leaders or members do things that either trigger the deconversion process or help it along. They may turn a doubter into a skeptic or a quiet skeptic into an outspoken anti-theist, or as one former Christian calls himself, a de-vangelist.

Here are some top ways Christians push people out the Church door or shove secret skeptics out of the closet. Looking at the list, you can’t help but wonder if the Catholic Bishops and their Evangelical allies are working for the devil.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#145 LFC

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 10:13 AM

This kind of whining victimhood is yet another thing that repulses decent people from those who, rightly or wrongly, are the face of Christianity in America today.

Quote

Greeted by an honorary degree and chants of “U-S-A!” Vice President Mike Pence warned a crowd of 8,000 graduates at Liberty University during the evangelical school’s commencement on Saturday to prepare to be ridiculed for their faith after graduation.

Pence told students to “be ready” for the “ridicule” and “opposition” from the media and “Hollywood liberals” that will inevitably come when they’re out in the real world, while also touting the work the Trump administration has done to “protect religious liberty.”

“Some of the loudest voices for tolerance today have little tolerance for traditional Christian beliefs,” he said. “As you go about your daily life, just be ready because you’re going to be asked not just to tolerate things that violate your faith, you’re going to be asked to endorse them. You’re going to be asked to bow down to the idols of the popular culture. … Decide here and now that you’re going to stand firm,” Pence said. “You’ll always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that you have, and you’ll do so with gentleness and respect.”

There's no acceptance that people can disagree with their views in good faith because they have God™ on their side. And how hypocritical is it for somebody to talk about "gentleness and respect" at Liberty University of all places. These people are disgusting.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#146 LFC

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Posted 13 May 2019 - 12:28 PM

How long before the likes of Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell Jr. come out supporting this creep's "religious freedom?"

Quote

A notorious anti-gay, anti-Semitic Arizona pastor who once prayed for the death of Barack Obama has became the first person ever to be banned from entering Ireland, the country’s media reported. Steven L. Anderson became nationally known in 2009 when he prayed for Obama’s death, and also was reviled across the U.S. after he praised the gunman who killed 49 people in an attack on a gay club in Florida in 2016. Anderson planned to preach to a congregation in Dublin on May 26—but a petition calling for him to be banned from entering the country was signed by 14,000 people, according to the Irish Times. Ireland Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan signed a so-called exclusion order against Anderson on Sunday, the first time such an order has been used since the powers were created 20 years ago. It’s the latest country to ban Anderson from entry—he’s also barred from the U.K., the Netherlands, and South Africa.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#147 LFC

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Posted 16 May 2019 - 04:31 PM

Where's the worst bullying in the nation? Where do you think. Mostly red states with a lot of them being in the "Bible Belt", now almost a synonym for the worst America has to offer. I know people who left areas like that who described such endemic intolerance and "holier than thou" attitudes that they said they'd never return. I guess you don't need a Bible to recognize evil and reading a Bible doesn't prevent you from acting evil. The evidence seems to be that it makes things worse.

Quote

Bullying is a pervasive problem for young people in the U.S., especially those who identify as LGBTQ — but the severity of it varies greatly by state, and the “most bullied states” in the union, as shown in a new study, are predominantly southern and conservative.

Louisiana ranked as the most bullied state in 2019 in the study from BackgroundChecks.org. It was followed by the District of Columbia, Arkansas, Maryland, Arizona, Tennessee, Mississippi, Kentucky, Alaska, and Alabama, rounding out the top 10. The 10 states that ranked as the least bullied (numbers 42-51, because the inclusion of D.C. in the jurisdictions) were Oklahoma, New Jersey, Maine, Delaware, Vermont, Oregon, Minnesota, Massachusetts, Washington State, and North Dakota.

The study looked at all types of bullying, not just LGBTQ-related. The score for each state was based on four factors. Half of it was based on the frequency of bullying, 25 percent on the incidence of in-school violence, 20 percent on the impact of bullying, and 5 percent on whether or not the state has antibullying laws in place.

While the past few years have seen an increase in campaigns to raise public awareness of bullying and combat it, in some states the situation has not improved. “Louisiana, for example, still leads the nation in incidents of bullying with nearly 1 in 4 students reporting being bullied and a staggering 1 in 10 students reporting being threatened or harmed with a weapon at school,” the study notes. “Other states that have previously ranked poorly like Arkansas and Mississippi have failed to show much improvement with regards to their ranking on the list.”

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#148 LFC

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Posted 16 May 2019 - 04:32 PM

Here's a list of 10 ways that religions grab public tax dollars to fund their operations.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#149 HockeyDon

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 02:08 PM

View PostLFC, on 16 May 2019 - 04:31 PM, said:

Where's the worst bullying in the nation? Where do you think. Mostly red states with a lot of them being in the "Bible Belt", now almost a synonym for the worst America has to offer. I know people who left areas like that who described such endemic intolerance and "holier than thou" attitudes that they said they'd never return. I guess you don't need a Bible to recognize evil and reading a Bible doesn't prevent you from acting evil. The evidence seems to be that it makes things worse.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg
Well, fuck.

How can I be expected to distinguish BS from reality when so much of my reality is utter BS?!

"There seems to be a lot of people dying of ignorance while living in the information age." my sister-in-law.

#150 Rich T Bikkies

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 02:22 PM

View PostHockeyDon, on 17 May 2019 - 02:08 PM, said:

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg

In the event I ever meet this person (and it's unlikely I will, being on a different continent), I wonder whether he'd think my religion is an insult to human dignity? He'd probably think I was another Elwood P Dowd, except that I call my pal God, not Harvey, and I never picture him to myself as a rabbit. So a first draft of the answer is perhaps "Yes".

But "human dignity" sounds a broader thing than just RIchard Theophrastus Bikkies making a fool of himself. How corrosive is my inappropriate world-view (which I don't talk about much, really) to the human race in these dangerous times?

ETA: Just found the chap on Wikipedia. A physicist, forsooth! Well, if our very own Richard Dawkins is removed from our midst, literally or metaphorically, it looks like you Yanks have got a home-grown replacement. Or did you already have one, in Noam Chomsky?
Reality is a hallucination caused by alcohol deprivation.

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God is not dead. He was merely voted out of office.

You can do anything with anybody if you just save them the trouble of thinking.

#151 LFC

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 04:56 PM

View PostRich T Bikkies, on 17 May 2019 - 02:22 PM, said:

In the event I ever meet this person (and it's unlikely I will, being on a different continent), I wonder whether he'd think my religion is an insult to human dignity? He'd probably think I was another Elwood P Dowd, except that I call my pal God, not Harvey, and I never picture him to myself as a rabbit. So a first draft of the answer is perhaps "Yes".

I think the point is not that all religions make good people do evil things. It's just a fantastically powerful driver. To reiterate the Voltaire quote I use often, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

And don't look down on us Pookatites.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#152 MSheridan

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 08:11 PM

Hey all, long time no see. Depression issues.

Thought I'd jump back in, see how the water feels. Saw this thread near the top of new stuff and the comment quoted below seemed to ask for a response:

View PostLFC, on 16 May 2019 - 04:31 PM, said:

Where's the worst bullying in the nation? Where do you think. Mostly red states with a lot of them being in the "Bible Belt", now almost a synonym for the worst America has to offer. I know people who left areas like that who described such endemic intolerance and "holier than thou" attitudes that they said they'd never return. I guess you don't need a Bible to recognize evil and reading a Bible doesn't prevent you from acting evil. The evidence seems to be that it makes things worse.

Maybe it's because I live out in heathenish California, but I very seldom seem to meet people who actually read the Bible. I know quite a few people who are believers--or would call themselves so--and a considerably smaller number who regularly attend church, but I can think of only one friend who I know for a fact reads the Bible. He's in his 80's and has definitely heard the knock upon the door, so to speak. At least out here, there just aren't that many Bible readers. Perchance it's different elsewhere?

To me, it seems like the same sort of thing we encounter every few years when we hear about some new poll or survey that firmly establishes that a sizable majority of Americans are practically ignorant of the Bill of Rights. One imagines most of those polled or surveyed consider themselves at least moderately patriotic, but their patriotism isn't based on knowledge of what sets America apart but instead on their feelings about the country in which they happened to be born. That is understandable enough, and even defensible, until such time as someone uses their love of country as a defense for committing un-American acts. In the same vein, the Christianity of many Christians (not all, to be sure) very often appears to be more an identity, a religious affiliation upholding peoples' pre-existing cultural biases, than it is anything like a consistent framework of beliefs that actually shapes and changes peoples' actions and worldview. For that reason, we frequently see something called Christianity used by its supposed adherents to defend greed and attack the poor and powerless, even though it is impossible to get there from the words of their savior.

#153 Bact PhD

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 08:27 PM

View PostMSheridan, on 17 May 2019 - 08:11 PM, said:

Hey all, long time no see. Depression issues.

Thought I'd jump back in, see how the water feels. Saw this thread near the top of new stuff and the comment quoted below seemed to ask for a response:



Maybe it's because I live out in heathenish California, but I very seldom seem to meet people who actually read the Bible. I know quite a few people who are believers--or would call themselves so--and a considerably smaller number who regularly attend church, but I can think of only one friend who I know for a fact reads the Bible. He's in his 80's and has definitely heard the knock upon the door, so to speak. At least out here, there just aren't that many Bible readers. Perchance it's different elsewhere?

To me, it seems like the same sort of thing we encounter every few years when we hear about some new poll or survey that firmly establishes that a sizable majority of Americans are practically ignorant of the Bill of Rights. One imagines most of those polled or surveyed consider themselves at least moderately patriotic, but their patriotism isn't based on knowledge of what sets America apart but instead on their feelings about the country in which they happened to be born. That is understandable enough, and even defensible, until such time as someone uses their love of country as a defense for committing un-American acts. In the same vein, the Christianity of many Christians (not all, to be sure) very often appears to be more an identity, a religious affiliation upholding peoples' pre-existing cultural biases, than it is anything like a consistent framework of beliefs that actually shapes and changes peoples' actions and worldview. For that reason, we frequently see something called Christianity used by its supposed adherents to defend greed and attack the poor and powerless, even though it is impossible to get there from the words of their savior.

Great to hear from you, MS!

I concur with the analogy of Christians:Bible reading or knowledge :: Patriotic Americans™:knowledge of the Bill of Rights. A few points from either document have been cherry-picked and beaten into the ground over time—never mind any modifying or contradictory elements...
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#154 Bact PhD

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 08:28 PM

BTW, nope, it’s not terribly different elsewhere.

(Originally an errant double-post$
Politics these days is show business. Elections are Dancing with the Stars with consequences. ~Rue Bella

(About fame) Living for likes, shares and follows is a form of validation. The question is whether it is also the source of our self esteem. If it is, we’re screwed. And, culturally, it seems as if it’s become more and more our shared value. ... Meringue is no longer a sweet and pretty topping but the body itself. ~Charles Perez

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816. ME 14:384, via LFC, 12/1/2016

Competent people go in one of a few directions. But incompetence is infinite. ~David Brooks, NY Times

#155 AnBr

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 08:31 PM

I don't really have anything to add, but welcome back.
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Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

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#156 baw1064

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Posted 17 May 2019 - 09:10 PM

Welcome back, MSheridan. Good to see you!

I agree, for many (most?) people, being a Christian, or a conservative for that matter, is more of a tribal affiliation than a set of beliefs or ideas to which one subscribes after giving it considerable thought.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#157 Rich T Bikkies

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 01:10 AM

View PostMSheridan, on 17 May 2019 - 08:11 PM, said:

Hey all, long time no see. Depression issues.

Thought I'd jump back in, see how the water feels. Saw this thread near the top of new stuff and the comment quoted below seemed to ask for a response:

Welcome back, MS.

Your post said everyyhing I would like to have said, and so much better than I could say it. I agree with every word.
Reality is a hallucination caused by alcohol deprivation.

Only Satan can rebuke sin. The righteous don't know enough.

God is not dead. He was merely voted out of office.

You can do anything with anybody if you just save them the trouble of thinking.

#158 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 07:04 AM

View PostMSheridan, on 17 May 2019 - 08:11 PM, said:

Maybe it's because I live out in heathenish California, but I very seldom seem to meet people who actually read the Bible. I know quite a few people who are believers--or would call themselves so--and a considerably smaller number who regularly attend church, but I can think of only one friend who I know for a fact reads the Bible. He's in his 80's and has definitely heard the knock upon the door, so to speak. At least out here, there just aren't that many Bible readers. Perchance it's different elsewhere?

There's an old observation that once:
  • There were people who believed in god
  • Then they put intermediaries (priests) to handle the details
  • That meant they could replace believing in god with believing in scriptures
  • Then they put an intermediary (jesus) in to front for god
  • Then believing in jesus subbed in for believing in god
  • Then they created the church to represent jesus
  • That way they didn't need to read the scriptures
  • Then believing in the church subbed in for believing in jesus
  • Then believing the priesthood subbed in for believing the scriptures
  • Now there's no need to believe the scriptures so there's no need to read them because they can just believe their priesthood.
Yeah, the protestants say they don't have priests. I'm not sure they're joking.

The church once (pre-Gutenberg) restricted the reading of scriptures to the priesthood (and not all of them) in part on the grounds that anyone lacking a careful preparation would not get the right understanding from reading them (read: lose faith.) The word since the Enlightenment has been that they might well have been right, and now that it's a fairly common (and accepted) thing, deconversion stories seem to bear that out.
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#159 Beelzebuddy

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 10:18 AM

View PostMSheridan, on 17 May 2019 - 08:11 PM, said:

Hey all, long time no see. Depression issues.

Thought I'd jump back in, see how the water feels. Saw this thread near the top of new stuff and the comment quoted below seemed to ask for a response:



Maybe it's because I live out in heathenish California, but I very seldom seem to meet people who actually read the Bible. I know quite a few people who are believers--or would call themselves so--and a considerably smaller number who regularly attend church, but I can think of only one friend who I know for a fact reads the Bible. He's in his 80's and has definitely heard the knock upon the door, so to speak. At least out here, there just aren't that many Bible readers. Perchance it's different elsewhere?

To me, it seems like the same sort of thing we encounter every few years when we hear about some new poll or survey that firmly establishes that a sizable majority of Americans are practically ignorant of the Bill of Rights. One imagines most of those polled or surveyed consider themselves at least moderately patriotic, but their patriotism isn't based on knowledge of what sets America apart but instead on their feelings about the country in which they happened to be born. That is understandable enough, and even defensible, until such time as someone uses their love of country as a defense for committing un-American acts. In the same vein, the Christianity of many Christians (not all, to be sure) very often appears to be more an identity, a religious affiliation upholding peoples' pre-existing cultural biases, than it is anything like a consistent framework of beliefs that actually shapes and changes peoples' actions and worldview. For that reason, we frequently see something called Christianity used by its supposed adherents to defend greed and attack the poor and powerless, even though it is impossible to get there from the words of their savior.
This is why I left the faith.
Fear Sells!

Cui bono?

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#160 Practical Girl

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 01:05 PM

As others have said- nice to hear from you MSheridan. I don't quite know what you mean by depression issues, but the best of thoughts for you, as you move through.

In any event, you came back! You are home, and not one thing you said gives me occasion to counter argue. C'mon- I'm PG. I can argue with a wall...

Take care friend, and we're all here, listening. And we've been having a ball on the community thread. Join us?

BTW- the people least likely to actually read the Bible are the first ones, in Midwest and many other places, to
cite it as reasons for all their BS.
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---Julia Child


--- On September 17, 1787, as Benjamin Franklin was leaving the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention, at Independence Hall, in Philadelphia, a woman called out to him, saying, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?”
“A republic,” Franklin said, “if you can keep it.”


--- LFC, on Gorsuch ruling: "Awesome. A Christianist who swore an oath to uphold the laws of the nation and bore false witness when he did it"

--- "Write hard and clear about what hurts"
Ernest Hemingway





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