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Evangelicals and the Cult of "Courting" Young Girls


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#1 LFC

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 09:04 PM

I think this deserves its own thread. It's not overtly political but it certainly explains how Roy Moore, who has been in the Christian fundamentalist world all his life, could end up believing that his sick and twisted obsession with children was perfectly normal. He still probably believes it.

Evangelicals are actually quite comfortable with older men dating and marrying very young girls. I guess they don't want the girls to be spoiled by growing up to be independent women. Those defending Moore don't see any problem with the age difference. And the home school movement seems to be a conduit of this kind of perversion.

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We need to talk about the segment of American culture that probably doesn’t think the allegations against Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore are particularly damning, the segment that will blanch at only two accusations in the Washington Post expose: He pursued a 14-year-old-girl without first getting her parents’ permission, and he initiated sexual contact outside of marriage. That segment is evangelicalism. In that world, which Moore travels in and I grew up in, 14-year-old girls courting adult men isn’t uncommon.

I use the phrase “14-year-old girls courting adult men,” rather than “adult men courting 14-year-old girls,” for a reason: Evangelicals routinely frame these relationships in those terms. That’s how I was introduced to these relationships as a home-schooled teenager in the 1990s, and it’s the language that my friends and I would use to discuss girls we knew who were in parent-sanctioned relationships with older men.

One popular courtship story that was told and retold in home-school circles during the 1990s was that of Matthew and Maranatha Chapman, who turned their history into a successful career promoting young marriage. Most audiences, however, didn’t realize just how young the Chapmans had in mind until the site Homeschoolers Anonymous and the blogger Libby Anne revealed that Matthew was 27 and Maranatha was 15 when they married. Libby Anne also drew mainstream attention to Matthew Chapman’s writings, in which he argued that parents should consider marriage for their daughters in their “middle-teens.” At that point the Chapmans stopped receiving quite so many speaking invitations.

Child marriage advocate Vaughn Ohlman followed more or less the same arc. He made a career out of speaking at home-school conventions until the wider world heard tell — again thanks to Homeschoolers Anonymous — of his planned retreat for families to arrange child marriages.

“Duck Dynasty” star Phil Robertson advocated for adult men to marry 15- and 16-year-old girls and deemed age 20 too old because “you wait until they get to be 20 years old, the only picking that’s going to take place is your pocket.” Home-school leader Kevin Swanson, whose 2015 convention was attended by several Republican presidential candidates, defended Robertson on his radio show after the story broke. Advocating for child marriage hasn’t slowed down Robertson’s career. He just got a new show on the conservative digital network CRTV.

As a teenager, I attended a lecture on courtship by a home-school speaker who was popular at the time. He praised the idea of “early courtship” so the girl could be molded into the best possible helpmeet for her future husband. The girl’s father was expected to direct her education after the courtship began so she could help her future husband in his work.

In retrospect, I understand what the speaker was really describing: Adult men selecting and grooming girls who were too young to have life experience. Another word for that is “predation.”

Much of the sexual abuse that takes place in Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, or IFB, churches involves adult men targeting 14- to 16-year-old girls. If caught, the teenage victim may be forced to repent the “sin” of having seduced an adult man. Former IFB megachurch pastor Jack Schaap argued that he should be released from prison after being convicted of molesting a 16-year-old girl, asserting that the “aggressiveness” of his victim “inhibited [his] impulse control.” In the wake of the Schaap case, numerous other stories emerged of sexual abuse cover-ups involving teenage girls at IFB churches. In another high-profile case, pregnant 15-year-old Tina Anderson, who was raped by a church deacon twice her age, was forced to confess her “sin” to the congregation.

Prominent conservative Reformed theologian Doug Wilson has a documented history of mishandling sexual abuse cases within his congregation. Nevertheless, he continues to be promoted by evangelical leaders such as John Piper, whose Desiring God site still publishes Wilson’s work. When a 13-year-old girl in Wilson’s congregation was sexually abused, Wilson argued that she and her abuser were in a parent-sanctioned courtship, and that this was a mitigating factor.

There’s no shortage of such stories. A Presbyterian Church in America, or PCA, pastor attempted to discipline a woman who warned home-school parents of the convicted sex offender in his congregation. (The sex offender had gone online to solicit a 14-year-old girl for sex.) Another PCA church allowed that same convicted sex offender to give the invocation at a home-school graduation ceremony. He wasn’t perceived as an attempted child rapist, and he was “repentant.”

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

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#2 AnBr

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 09:08 PM

Perhaps not overtly political, but evangelicals are selling their souls to bring about Christianist sharia laws, which is political.
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#3 HockeyDon

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:37 AM

I just watched a few clips of Hitch describing religion as evil, using various bits as his evidence. This story fits right in that same vein.
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#4 Rich T Bikkies

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:58 AM

View PostHockeyDon, on 14 November 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

I just watched a few clips of Hitch describing religion as evil, using various bits as his evidence. This story fits right in that same vein.

Hitch? As in cock? Please explain.

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#5 LFC

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:05 PM

View PostRich T Bikkies, on 14 November 2017 - 11:58 AM, said:

Hitch? As in cock? Please explain.

Christopher Hitchens, another Brit.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#6 cmk

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:06 PM

I've weighed in on this before but I'll preface with the standard disclaimer: I am not supporting pedophilia or the breaking of any consent laws in our modern society, which are there for good reason.

That said, human history goes back thousands of years, and it's only in the last 1% of that time, roughly, that the idea of older men marrying much younger women, even teenaged girls, became seen as perverted or abusive. As recently as 3 or 4 generations ago, it was not only not seen as unusual, it was expected.

I don't see this as about religion except indirectly. It's mostly about biology. Female fertility peaks in the late teens and early 20s. Men are programmed to want to have sex with women who are fertile. (That's an oversimplification, but you understand what I mean.)

Religion did not create this. It comes in through the desire to resist change, and in this case that means keeping to a traadition that is outmoded.
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#7 golden_valley

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:14 PM

I think this did originate in biological imperatives but I also think that there is and was a power discrepancy that supported early marriage as well. See LFC's initial post. It's easy for the husbands to dominate the relationship...barefoot, pregnant, and generally uneducated keeps the woman from having too much contact with the outside world where she might get ideas that are contrary to what the husbands want.

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:17 PM

View Postcmk, on 14 November 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

I've weighed in on this before but I'll preface with the standard disclaimer: I am not supporting pedophilia or the breaking of any consent laws in our modern society, which are there for good reason.

That said, human history goes back thousands of years, and it's only in the last 1% of that time, roughly, that the idea of older men marrying much younger women, even teenaged girls, became seen as perverted or abusive. As recently as 3 or 4 generations ago, it was not only not seen as unusual, it was expected.

I don't see this as about religion except indirectly. It's mostly about biology. Female fertility peaks in the late teens and early 20s. Men are programmed to want to have sex with women who are fertile. (That's an oversimplification, but you understand what I mean.)

Religion did not create this. It comes in through the desire to resist change, and in this case that means keeping to a traadition that is outmoded.

Certainly, but the religion is the justification. I assume “because I want to knock up teenagers” wouldn’t carry much authority any more.

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#9 LFC

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:20 PM

View Postcmk, on 14 November 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

That said, human history goes back thousands of years, and it's only in the last 1% of that time, roughly, that the idea of older men marrying much younger women, even teenaged girls, became seen as perverted or abusive. As recently as 3 or 4 generations ago, it was not only not seen as unusual, it was expected.

So does slavery, the concept of women as property, and homosexuality as being evil. Understanding and knowledge have brought us out of a type of darkness as we try to move towards the concept of all people being equal ... even (gasp!) women and non-white people. It's religion that is used to defend the old ways. Some call it god's law, some tradition, and I call it evil. Toe-mate-toe, toe-mot-toe?
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#10 cmk

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 01:01 PM

Of course there' an inherent power discrepancy, as has been the case throughout history. But the stuff about slavery and racism is just the usual red herrings that come up any time anyone posts a contrary argument on this subject.

Slavery (of the relatively modern type -- not all slavery is the same) is inherently about subjugation and abuse. That is not the case inherently in pairings of unequal age. Historically, an 18 year old woman had very good reasons, in many cases, to be wedded to a 40 year old man, and vice-versa. Was the relationship equal? Probably not. Was it inherently abusive in nature? Probably not, at least, no more than could occur if the woman was older.

Trying to pin this on Christianity is bogus.

As an aside, I just read about the Mosuo culture, which is fascinating.
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"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#11 LFC

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 01:27 PM

View Postcmk, on 14 November 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

Of course there' an inherent power discrepancy, as has been the case throughout history. But the stuff about slavery and racism is just the usual red herrings that come up any time anyone posts a contrary argument on this subject.

Slavery (of the relatively modern type -- not all slavery is the same) is inherently about subjugation and abuse. That is not the case inherently in pairings of unequal age. Historically, an 18 year old woman had very good reasons, in many cases, to be wedded to a 40 year old man, and vice-versa. Was the relationship equal? Probably not. Was it inherently abusive in nature? Probably not, at least, no more than could occur if the woman was older.

Trying to pin this on Christianity is bogus.

As an aside, I just read about the Mosuo culture, which is fascinating.

I think you're missing a big piece here. Let's talk about the word "subjugation". What were these "very good reasons" that an 18-year old woman had to wed a much older man? It was the fact that they needed a good provider to survive. And why was that? Because the society they lived in subjugated and abused them. I don't know how else to describe treating women as property, having a different set of laws for men vs. women to rule their actions, and even some (many?) societies preventing women from owning property. Community property laws in this country were created to protect women upon their husband's death so a brother or other male relative couldn't just sweep in and take the deceased's property. Just as bad as slavery? No. Still really bad? Absolutely. One might very easily say "abusive".

Now with the subject of "trying to pin this on Christianity" you provide no real defense for that statement. Women now have equal rights. They are quickly gaining equal opportunities. Interactions between them and men are generally treated equivalently in the courts (at least when children aren't involved). It most certainly IS a different time. A blanket defense of Christianity doesn't stand up because in this country a fair segment (though certainly not all of it) wishes to preserve the subjugation of women. They preach it explicitly. Remember the Promise Keepers who clearly stated that women were to be subservient to men? Remember the Duggars? These aren't tiny cults. This represents the views of tens of millions of Americans. And systematically denying rights can easily be described as "abusive". In fact I'd say that adjective was quite accurate.

Those who defend this different treatment of males and females, including the marriage of girls before they can mature, virtually all seem to be Christians. That's not to say all or even a majority of Christians believe this, just that the overwhelming majority who do believe in it are Christian at least in this country. And their number is not insignificant.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#12 LFC

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 02:02 PM

Here's another article on the Biblical treatment of women.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#13 cmk

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 02:51 PM

All I am saying is that correlation is not causation, and this phenomenon is far from unique to Christians or even evangelicals. You're simply picking what is actually a pretty small minority of all those who would call themselves Christians and highlighting them when they are just a part of the issue.

Subordination of women to men is, again, historical. It is quite common in countries that are not Christian and not related to the Middle Eastern faiths at all, such as the far east.

This discussion reminds me of the tying of FGM to Islam.

ETA: I am, again, in no way condoning or justifying clearly immoral and illegal acts like some of those described above.
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"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#14 indy

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 03:37 PM

There really isn't an argument here, right? Child brides are common throughout history all over the globe. I think it's fair to say that form probably followed function; i.e., that first there was an actual reason to do it, such as tribal alliances, economic advantage, etc., and then religious rituals incorporated it because, you know, you didn't want to make an enemy of the king when he decided to marry a 10 year old.

#15 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 04:24 PM

Human females have far more trouble with pregnancy, birth, and children generally than damn near any other species on Earth. That honking huge head has a lot to do with it, but basically it just is.

Women in hunter-gatherer societies tended more towards the "gathering" than the "hunting," but so did the old men and the children. Generally more egalitarian than agricultural societies.

Agriculture was the only way that large populations could avoid starvation. For reasons, whenever population density gets low enough we seem to revert to hunter-gatherers.

Agriculture introduced "property" as more than "this is a nice shell necklace, I might make one for myself." Which might have had some bearing on the male interest in a whole lot of things besides a full belly, a warm place to sleep, and getting laid.

Those are pretty close to the "facts" end of things. Most of the rest is speculative.
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#16 andydp

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 05:02 PM

View PostLFC, on 14 November 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

Here's another article on the Biblical treatment of women.

This discussion got me thinking of St Paul's instruction about not letting women be in charge of men. Something most biblical scholars dispute was ever written by St Paul. I may add this verse is used as the reason why women are not allowed to even be Bible School Teachers in some Baptist denominations. Much to my embarrassment, there is a Catholic "sect" that adheres to this view also

1 Timothy 2: 9-15 (NASB) says:[indent]
Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.[1Tim. 2:9–15[/indent]
The whole article is here:

https://en.wikipedia...ostle_and_women
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#17 pnwguy

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 05:48 PM

View Postcmk, on 14 November 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

Of course there' an inherent power discrepancy, as has been the case throughout history. But the stuff about slavery and racism is just the usual red herrings that come up any time anyone posts a contrary argument on this subject.

Slavery (of the relatively modern type -- not all slavery is the same) is inherently about subjugation and abuse. That is not the case inherently in pairings of unequal age. Historically, an 18 year old woman had very good reasons, in many cases, to be wedded to a 40 year old man, and vice-versa. Was the relationship equal? Probably not. Was it inherently abusive in nature? Probably not, at least, no more than could occur if the woman was older.

Trying to pin this on Christianity is bogus.

As an aside, I just read about the Mosuo culture, which is fascinating.

Chris Ryan talked about the Mosuo in Sex at Dawn, and he mentions them in his TED talk:
https://www.youtube....h?v=LJhklPJz9U8

The central focus of their book is that humans evolved in much more egalitarian societies, and the kind of patriarchy we've had now for millennia is something that developed after agriculture and settlement. Property rights had no great value in hunter-gatherer structures, nor did paternity. Raising children was always a tribal venture.
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#18 LFC

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:47 AM

View Postcmk, on 14 November 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

All I am saying is that correlation is not causation, and this phenomenon is far from unique to Christians or even evangelicals. You're simply picking what is actually a pretty small minority of all those who would call themselves Christians and highlighting them when they are just a part of the issue.

Subordination of women to men is, again, historical. It is quite common in countries that are not Christian and not related to the Middle Eastern faiths at all, such as the far east.

I see where we're missing. I'm not blaming them for creating the system of female subjigation. You're absolutely correct that it's historical and widespread, even today. I'm blaming them for continuing to try to preserve it in modern day America. Just as they did with their opposition to interracial marriage. And just as they are currently doing in their opposition to same sex marriage. They also supported Trump overwhelmingly and polled at a 2/3 approval of torture. A majority approve of a lot of things that were once quite common but we now grasp as evil and horrible to the people involved. That's the problem with them.

As to being a "pretty small minority", Evangelicals make up 25% of the U.S. population. I'm not saying they all believe in keeping women in their place but I seriously doubt the number is insignificant. And they sure as hell aren't insignificant in states like Alabama.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer





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