Jump to content


Right-wing Christians Are Collecting What They Sold Their Souls For


181 replies to this topic

#161 HockeyDon

    Mind blown...

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3668 posts
  • LocationNew Britain, CT

Posted 10 June 2019 - 01:25 PM

One of his many quotes I keep in file concerning the religious right. He had nothing but disdain for them.
Well, fuck.

How can I be expected to distinguish BS from reality when so much of my reality is utter BS?!

"There seems to be a lot of people dying of ignorance while living in the information age." my sister-in-law.

#162 D. C. Sessions

    I don't have to pretend to be an adult any more

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9656 posts
  • LocationCentral New Mexico

Posted 10 June 2019 - 02:41 PM

View PostHockeyDon, on 10 June 2019 - 01:25 PM, said:

One of his many quotes I keep in file concerning the religious right. He had nothing but disdain for them.

Jewish father, Anglican mother. The fundies and the Goldwaters didn't have much use for each other.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#163 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 28410 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 10 June 2019 - 03:40 PM

The mask is off and the religious right is now having an open discussion on whether the old Republican part is dead and they should be driving full speed ahead to take control of government and use it to further Christianist goals. Sure that's been spoken about in some circles for ages but it appears to be roaring forward with an opening salvo from Sohrab Ahmari from the NY Post attacking the establishment defender David French of the National Review. Many of them want a war and they want it now. Trump has not only unleashed the worst of the bigots but also the worst of the theocrats in this country. While he fills the D.C. swamp with his criminal administration he also let's the worst of the swamp creatures in America at large come out with his approval. Even when Trump is gone the civil war we've now begun will continue. After all they have God™ on their side.

Quote

Still, as the Republican party has become increasingly synonymous with Trump, staying in pretty much lockstep support both at the level of elected officials and Republican voters, this raises the question for Republicans, what’s the theory behind our support? If we’re calling the press the “enemy of the people”, embracing ethno-nationalism and an increasingly authoritarian view of politics, what part of it lasts past Trump? For commentators and intellectuals, if we’re now in the business of permanent zero-sum fights with an opposition we brand as enemies, what’s the platform beyond Twitter outbursts.

Ed Kilgore published an article last week arguing that Josh Hawley, the freshman Senator from Missouri, could be the face of the post-Trump right. Hawley has a prestige Ivy league education and is couth in all the ways Trump is uncouth. But I confess I didn’t realize until I read Ed’s piece just how far right Hawley is. This goes beyond just voting records. Ed finds a series of speeches in which Hawley argues pretty straightforwardly that what we call civic republicanism or classical liberalism is only valuable or worthwhile to the extent it supports God’s mandates and the kind of society demanded by traditionalist Christianity.

That article picks up on a new debate on the right between a guy named Sohrab Ahmari, opinion editor at the NY Post and David French, an anti-Trump conservative at The National Review. (If you follow political Twitter you’ve probably seen at least some of this discussion over the last week or so.) The main document is this fusillade by Ahmari against French in First Things. It in turn builds off this “manifesto” that Ahmari and others published in the same publication earlier this year. There’s also this interview which The New Yorker’s Isaac Chotiner did with Ross Douthat from the Times opinion page where he discusses this debate and adds in some of his own ideas.

French is basically a very conservative classical liberal, in the sense of someone who believes in pluralism, rule of law, etc. Ahmaris argues that’s a dead end for real conservatives, that a pluralist, classical liberal model is one in which conservatives will always be being pushed out of the public square. As the argument goes, they now have to accept gays, abortion, trans-rights. Where does it end? Of course, ultra-orthodox Jews seem to get by all right living in one of the more liberal parts of the country here in New York City. How do they manage? Look a little closer and the key is that the trend of American society seems to be one where their traditionalist Christian vision won’t be backed by the state or set the tone for society at large.

The ideas this group is pushing basically go back to what is often called “Catholic integralism”. (Most of the players are Catholic, though Hawley comes from the Protestant side of this traditionalist grouping.) This is a form of anti-pluralist Catholic political ideology most associated with quasi-fascist governments in Spain and Portugal and political movements in France (Vichy being the example in power) and other European countries. The basic thrust is a political vision that prioritizes hierarchical social cohesion and has the government takes a leading role enforcing traditionalist cultural and social values and keeping conservative Christianity as the taproot of the state. Church and state are both on the same team and working, collaboratively, toward the same end. The pluralist vision of the state most of us are familiar with, in which it is a semi-neutral arbiter between lots of different visions of how people should live their lives, is anathema.


I don't say this often but be sure to follow the links and read what is coming. The right-wing Christianists see the tide turning against the evil they espouse (no that they can grasp why imprisoning people over sex is evil) and they are ready for battle. Here's something to note about rising right-wing political star Josh Hawley, one of the Christianists' political heroes.

Quote

Hawley is already being celebrated as a symbol of post-Trump conservatism in the precincts of The Federalist. And in a recent taxonomy of the contemporary right, Matthew Continetti described the Missourian as the chief political representative of the “post-liberals” exemplified by Ahmari:

Quote

The closest the post-liberals have to a spokesman in the Senate is freshman Josh Hawley, who attends an evangelical Presbyterian church. Not six months into his term, Hawley has already established himself as a social conservative unafraid of government power. He has picked fights with the conservative legal establishment by criticizing two of President Trump’s judicial appointments. He has identified Silicon Valley as a threat to traditional values and proposed legislation to begin to rein in the tech industry …

The post-liberals say that the distinction between state and society is illusory. They argue that, even as conservatives defended the independence of civil society from state power, the left took over Hollywood, the academy, the media, and the courts. What the post-liberals seem to call for is the use of government to recapture society from the left.

Government-sanctioned culture war against private entities like those which control Hollywood and Silicon Valley is indeed a departure from traditional American conservatism. But it’s entirely consonant with a European brand of right-wing authoritarianism that drew on precapitalist strains of religion-based hostility to liberalism in economics as in culture, and contemptuously rejected modern liberal democracy while utilizing its institutions to seize power whenever possible. What makes Hawley fascinating and scary is how systematically he embraces this illiberal world view. In a much-noted commencement address at The King’s College in New York last month, the young senator denounced any commitment to freedom as an end in itself as a vestige of the ancient heresy of Pelagianism, usually described as stipulating the perfectibility of human nature without divine grace:

Quote

Perhaps the most eloquent contemporary statement of Pelagian freedom appears in an opinion from the United States Supreme Court, in a passage written by former Justice Anthony Kennedy. In 1992, in a case called Casey v. Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania, he wrote this: “At the heart of liberty is the right to define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life.”

It’s the Pelagian vision. Liberty is the right to choose your own meaning, define your own values, emancipate yourself from God by creating your own self. Indeed, this notion of freedom says you can emancipate yourself not just from God but from society, family, and tradition.

This is superficially startling coming from a man who made his bones in conservative circles as an attorney for the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty — until you understand that, for him, “liberty” is reserved for the righteous, as an instrument of God’s plan for humankind. That’s how Hawley described government itself in a 2012 essay:

Quote

Scripture teaches that political government is mandated by God for his service and is one means by which the enthroned Christ carries out his rule….

These things together tell us something quite important about what government is for, and what Christians should be trying to do with it and with politics. Government serves Christ’s kingdom rule; this is its purpose. And Christians’ purpose in politics should be to advance the kingdom of God — to make it more real, more tangible, more present.

There and elsewhere, Hawley went out of his way to deny his goal was an explicit, Gilead-style theocracy, but it’s clear he views politics, the Constitutional order, and other secular institutions as means to a godly end. And for that reason, he is inclined to view his natural allies as cultural reactionaries, whether they are fellow evangelicals, traditionalist Catholics (like Ahmari), or even conservative non-Christians, as opposed to the gay-friendly, feminist-infested infidels of the corporate world.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#164 Beelzebuddy

    Convenient Target of Irrational Fears

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1733 posts
  • LocationAustin

Posted 11 June 2019 - 10:09 AM

Posted Image
Fear Sells!

Cui bono?

"The real problem of humanity is the following: we have paleolithic emotions; medieval institutions; and god-like technology." - EO Wilson.

"Hell is truth seen too late" - T Hobbes

#165 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 28410 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 11 June 2019 - 11:17 AM

View PostBeelzebuddy, on 11 June 2019 - 10:09 AM, said:

Posted Image

Yeah but they're trying hard to change that. With Trump sucking up to them they can practically taste their Christianist Caliphate.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#166 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 28410 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 11 June 2019 - 11:59 AM

Interesting piece on the history of how our nation got to where it is on bending over backwards for religious claims and how things really started to change when "Conservative Christians went from thinking of themselves as a Moral Majority to a Persecuted Minority." Progressives had their hands in it a long time ago.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#167 Probabilistic

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2141 posts

Posted 11 June 2019 - 12:14 PM

View PostBeelzebuddy, on 11 June 2019 - 10:09 AM, said:

Posted Image

In theory

#168 D. C. Sessions

    I don't have to pretend to be an adult any more

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9656 posts
  • LocationCentral New Mexico

Posted 11 June 2019 - 02:10 PM

Knowing how the details of the Dominionist agenda poll, I would be running PSAs of that speech (and others like it) as often as the budget allows. And I would be quite clear about the specific religious doctrines of the speakers, because it's about time we stripped off their current mask of "we're all persecuted Christians together." The Catholics will be some of the first up against the wall, for instance.

And, yes, I'd be calling the agenda something like "Catholic Sharia" or "Baptist Sharia."
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#169 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 28410 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 14 June 2019 - 04:07 PM

Josh Hawley (soooo we see that name again) lead the charge to tank a judicial nominee because the attorney actually practiced the law. This is just another Republican drive to place religion above the law. (Well, the "Christian" religion anyway.)

Quote

Senate Republicans are finally standing up to President Donald Trump on the kind of judicial nominee they can’t support: a lawyer who defends his client.

Michael Bogren, Trump’s nominee to the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Michigan, announced in a scathing Wednesday statement that he’s withdrawing his name because his nomination is already toast, thanks to “gross mischaracterizations” about his legal work by some GOP senators.

“I have been accused of being anti-religious, anti-Catholic, and a religious bigot,” fumed Borgen. “It is truly unfortunate that what used to be a dignified process has sunk to this level.”

Three Republicans on the Judiciary Committee ― Sens. Josh Hawley (Mo.), Ted Cruz (Texas) and Thom Tillis (N.C.) ― were prepared to reject Bogren’s nomination because they didn’t like the way he once defended the city of East Lansing in a lawsuit involving a Catholic couple. The couple sued after being barred from a farmer’s market after they refused to a host a same-sex marriage on their farm, citing religious beliefs. In his legal defense of the city, Bogren, a managing partner at the law firm Plunkett Cooney, used analogies involving the Ku Klux Klan and imams who do not believe women should drive.

That argument is anti-Catholic bigotry and unacceptable, argued Hawley, who laid into Bogren in his May confirmation hearing.

“You compared in your brief a Catholic family’s adherence to the teachings of their church to the activities of the KKK and the teachings of radical imams,” Hawley said. “Do you stand by those statements?”

“Respectfully, that is not what I said and those are not my views,” Bogren replied, as Hawley repeatedly interrupted him. “The point I was trying to make was that religious beliefs trying to justify discrimination if extended to sexual orientation, which the city of East Lansing protects, could be used to try to justify any other sort of discrimination, whether it be gender or race.”

“You think that the Catholic family’s pointing to the teachings of their church is equivalent to a KKK member invoking Christianity?” pressed Hawley.

“From a legal perspective,” Bogren said, again talking through the senator’s interruptions, “there is no distinction.”

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#170 golden_valley

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5711 posts
  • LocationNorthern California

Posted 14 June 2019 - 04:49 PM

View PostLFC, on 14 June 2019 - 04:07 PM, said:

Josh Hawley (soooo we see that name again) lead the charge to tank a judicial nominee because the attorney actually practiced the law. This is just another Republican drive to place religion above the law. (Well, the "Christian" religion anyway.)

Poor Bogren. He thought they wanted lawyers, not ideologues on the bench.

#171 Probabilistic

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2141 posts

Posted 20 June 2019 - 10:24 AM

Praise Be! (Constitution? What constitution?)

Under the watchful eyes of the Chief.

#172 pnwguy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1729 posts
  • LocationPortlandia

Posted 20 June 2019 - 11:54 AM

View PostProbabilistic, on 20 June 2019 - 10:24 AM, said:

Praise Be! (Constitution? What constitution?)

Under the watchful eyes of the Chief.
Blessed be the fruit. If need be, go rape that virgin, knock her up, pay the 50 shekels, and keep her cranking out those kids.

It's the solution to climate change, don't you know?
"All glory to the HypnoTrump, or else..."

"It all makes sense when you remind yourself that the GOP is no longer a political party but turned into an organized crime family"

"I hope to live long enough that the name Trump is reviled as much as the name Hitler or Stalin"

#173 Probabilistic

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2141 posts

Posted 20 June 2019 - 12:48 PM

Supremes decided crosses are not always Christian symbols. Sometimes they're just plus signs, at other times others they're multiplication signs. Of course the Supremes are worried about America's low math test scores. Erecting 40 ft signs could help remind people what is important in life.

#174 D. C. Sessions

    I don't have to pretend to be an adult any more

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9656 posts
  • LocationCentral New Mexico

Posted 20 June 2019 - 02:07 PM

View PostProbabilistic, on 20 June 2019 - 12:48 PM, said:

Supremes decided crosses are not always Christian symbols. Sometimes they're just plus signs, at other times others they're multiplication signs. Of course the Supremes are worried about America's low math test scores. Erecting 40 ft signs could help remind people what is important in life.

Start erecting them over sewage ponds and coal-ash dumps. Better yet, set them up in the red-light districts to show where a stranger is welcome.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#175 pnwguy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1729 posts
  • LocationPortlandia

Posted 20 June 2019 - 03:24 PM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 20 June 2019 - 02:07 PM, said:

Better yet, set them up in the red-light districts to show where a stranger is welcome.
They already are in Amsterdam, though they aren't limited to just the RLD. And they have THREE multiplication signs.

Posted Image
"All glory to the HypnoTrump, or else..."

"It all makes sense when you remind yourself that the GOP is no longer a political party but turned into an organized crime family"

"I hope to live long enough that the name Trump is reviled as much as the name Hitler or Stalin"

#176 Rue Bella

    Emerging from a state of cryogenic denial

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 7881 posts
  • LocationSoCal

Posted 20 June 2019 - 04:39 PM

Quote

Supremes decided crosses are not always Christian symbols. Sometimes they're just plus signs, at other times others they're multiplication signs.

And sometimes you can set them on fire on a lawn for a nice evening BBQ.
What is wrong with these people? ~ PG

No longer politically correct

#177 Rue Bella

    Emerging from a state of cryogenic denial

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 7881 posts
  • LocationSoCal

Posted 20 June 2019 - 06:03 PM

Calm down! it's just a Christian Cross!


Posted Image
What is wrong with these people? ~ PG

No longer politically correct

#178 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 28410 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 19 July 2019 - 02:37 PM

Torturing people with gay conversion therapy is still a priority for these people and a number of GOP Congressdouchebags are happy to comply.

Quote

A key bloc of House Republicans is planning to put pressure on Amazon to once again start selling “gay conversion therapy” books that the website had previously removed for peddling a dangerous, pseudo-scientific procedure that has been linked to suicide and mental health problems.

Vice News reports that the Republican Study Group issued a handout to its members this week encouraging them to raise concerns about “Amazon censorship” of books written by Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, the late clinical psychologist who has been credited with pioneering so-called gay conversion therapy techniques.

“In recent days, Amazon has banned the sale of several books addressing unwanted same-sex attraction,” the handout states. “It is not clear that any of the banned books have violated an Amazon policy, but rather that the company is choosing to censor speech.”

The RSC also pointed its members to an article in the right-wing publication The Federalist that described the LGBTQ community as a “supposedly oppressed and marginalized group” that also “wields an extravagant amount of power today, and does so without regard for the rights of anyone who chooses to not support them.”

Nicolosi’s work has long been discredited by other professional psychologists. In 2009, the American Psychological Association concluded that “mental health professionals should avoid telling clients that they can change their sexual orientation due to a lack of evidence that such change is possible and the potential for such efforts to harm the patient’s mental health.”

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#179 Probabilistic

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2141 posts

Posted 19 July 2019 - 03:02 PM

View PostLFC, on 19 July 2019 - 02:37 PM, said:

Torturing people with gay conversion therapy is still a priority for these people and a number of GOP Congressdouchebags are happy to comply.

Gay conversion therapy is codified in the constitution. Wait. May be the bible. Same thing anyway.

#180 D. C. Sessions

    I don't have to pretend to be an adult any more

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9656 posts
  • LocationCentral New Mexico

Posted 30 July 2019 - 09:23 AM

Regarding the new fad of marking their territory by requiring INGOT (IN God we Trust) to be conspicuously posted all over public schools, I like this proposal:

Posted Image
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users