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#1 drdredel

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 03:43 PM

I found this article to be bewildering

First of all...

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None other than George Takei, who somehow parlayed a small role from a low-rated, quickly canceled 1960s television show into widespread Internet fame, tweeted as much this week

Emphasis mine

I know he's being snarky - but I can describe Luke or Judas in precisely the same terms:
"One of the characters who, around 30 A.D. followed a largely unknown Jewish hermit around for a few years before said hermit was wrongly executed by the Romans and never heard from again" or some such.

does context not matter even a LITTLE bit in Epstein's universe?

But onto his larger point. Yes, indeed the members of the German American Bund were indeed being "patriotic" since in their assessment of the situation the country was on the wrong track and they were putting their reputations on the line in speaking up for what they believed was right.

Patriotism is action. Full stop. Everyone acting in the name of what they believe is the nation's best interest is being patriotic. More so if they stand to lose something (reputation, wealth, blood etc.) in taking their stand.

History can decide if their position lined up with ultimate benefits or costs but that doesn't change the fact that their actions were patriotic.
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#2 cmk

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 03:47 PM

When the right demands a full investigation, charges and convictions for everyone associated with Russia's meddling in our democratic process, I will listen to their opinions on patriotism.

Until then, they are traitors, and I don't care what they have to say.

(And my guess is he was serious in not understanding why and how Takei is famous. Right-wingers tend to be clued-out in that way.)
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#3 LFC

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 04:19 PM

Oh dear lord, the author of that piece is an idiot who needs to proofread his own bile. First he writes this, which is actually true.

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Of course, we’re not exactly living in a golden age of nuanced thinking.


Then he immediately goes on to prove he lacks nuanced thinking by ignoring birtherism, Kenyan Muslim, socialist, working with ISIS memes and instead playing the victim. Then he projects something even more breathtakingly stupid.

Quote

Recall that for many, any and all opposition to the policies of Barack Obama was rooted in racism. Which is why, when President Kamala Harris is in office in a few years, we can expect that protest will go from being “patriotic” to something more akin to “literal Nazism.”

Well waddya' expect from the Weakly Standard.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

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#4 Bact PhD

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 05:34 PM

The operative phrase is "it matters which side you're on."

Protest in support of ideologies the author holds dear (Tea Party disruption of town meetings, anyone?) were upheld as perfectly patriotic. Protests in opposition to same, not so much.
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#5 cmk

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 06:04 PM

In fairness, plenty of people do the opposite too.

BTW this is another litmus test for fake libertarianism.
Charles M. Kozierok - Administrator, TalkRadioSucks.com

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher


"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#6 drdredel

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 06:14 PM

View PostLFC, on 27 September 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

.. .Well waddya' expect from the Weakly Standard.

Actually - in contrast to this piece, here is Jonathan V. Last's article on the same subject with which not only do I just about fully agree but dare say is the only article on this entire subject that actually gets to the heart of the matter.

This excerpt, for example, had me jumping up and down in my seat... fucking FINALLY someone on the political Right says this...

Quote


(4) Conservatives have a blind spot for the police for reasons that are mystifying. Conservatives, after all, are hugely distrustful of government authority. Someone from the IRS or the EPA bosses citizens around and deprives them of their property and conservatives freak out.

But call that agent of the government a cop, give him a gun, the authority to kill, and a public sector union devoted to ensuring he faces zero accountability? Suddenly only racial agitators and liberal namby-pambies question his actions.

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#7 Progressive whisperer

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 06:34 AM

View Postdrdredel, on 27 September 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:



Actually - in contrast to this piece, here is Jonathan V. Last's article on the same subject with which not only do I just about fully agree but dare say is the only article on this entire subject that actually gets to the heart of the matter.

This excerpt, for example, had me jumping up and down in my seat... fucking FINALLY someone on the political Right says this...

[/color][/size]

The EPA, etc. rarely have reason to go after poor people of color. When a Conservative white guy has a run-in with the police, the narrative does change. Although mostly they want the police to be there and free to uphold the conservative status quo and hierarchy.

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#8 Progressive whisperer

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 06:35 AM

View Postdrdredel, on 27 September 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:



Actually - in contrast to this piece, here is Jonathan V. Last's article on the same subject with which not only do I just about fully agree but dare say is the only article on this entire subject that actually gets to the heart of the matter.

This excerpt, for example, had me jumping up and down in my seat... fucking FINALLY someone on the political Right says this...

[/color][/size]

The EPA, etc. rarely have reason to go after poor people of color. When a Conservative white guy has a run-in with the police, the narrative does change. Although mostly they want the police to be there and free to uphold the conservative status quo and hierarchy.


Shorter version - IGMFY.
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#9 LFC

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 08:42 AM

View Postdrdredel, on 27 September 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

Actually - in contrast to this piece, here is Jonathan V. Last's article on the same subject with which not only do I just about fully agree but dare say is the only article on this entire subject that actually gets to the heart of the matter.

This excerpt, for example, had me jumping up and down in my seat... fucking FINALLY someone on the political Right says this...

I thought it was a very good piece except for his Point #1 and his conclusion. First Point #1:

Quote

More confusing still: When should the protests be over? Once you start protesting open-ended societal problems there’s no obvious endpoint. The criminal justice system isn’t going to be perfected tomorrow, or next week, or by the time today’s NFL rookies retire. And even if we did fix the justice system, there would be other large-scale societal woes. Why not protest income inequality? Or the disparate racial impacts of abortion?

Protests ought to be organized with bright-line goals and natural endpoints. Otherwise kneeling for the national anthem becomes like wearing pink to “raise awareness” about breast cancer: It goes on for forever (and loses meaning over time).

So women shouldn't have (or still) protest for equal treatment because that's "an open-ended societal problem?" What about Martin Luther King? He uses an example of the Catholic Church and its molestation scandal. The "open-ended" problem was completely changing the church's valuation of their reputation over all else. Protesting that wasn't worth it?

In every one of these cases real gains were made. All of these problems still exist to a degree but all at much lesser levels than before and all still shrinking as far as I can tell. The "it's just too big" argument doesn't fly for me. In fact these are the very problems that most require protests. Protesting to give women the vote was a "bright line" and was great but that still didn't provide equal treatment under the law. Many, many more lines had to but crossed, some bright some not so (e.g. sexual harassment in the workplace, something not as easy to define as the right to vote).


Quote

The culture war has eaten America. Everyone is to blame and everyone will suffer for it.

An excellent cataloging of real issues flops down into the same old "both sides are to blame" nonsense. It's very simple. Those fighting for nothing but equal rights are NOT to blame. Those fighting to suppress equal rights or to gain special rights are. Easy peasy.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

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#10 cmk

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 08:52 AM

That article is superb.
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#11 cmk

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 09:00 AM

I think his point 1 is valid and one I hadn't considered. They are protesting, okay. What, specifically, do they want? What will cause them to stop the protest?

This isn't like the Catholic Church because these protests are very open and public and exposed to millions. Furthermore, they are happening in a place where many don't feel protest is appropriate (whether I agree or not).

The players risk backing themselves into a corner. If they stop protesting, those supporting them will criticize them. If they don't, this will eventually lose supporters and be opposed by increasing numbers. People don't like "excessive protest". There's a fatigue factor in any large, public statement.

As for the last point, he's talking about the culture wars in general, not this issue specifically. And yes, both sides are to blame.
Charles M. Kozierok - Administrator, TalkRadioSucks.com

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher


"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#12 Progressive whisperer

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 09:14 AM

One person's "culture war" is another person's right to exist, free from physical as well as other attacks. Anti-miscegenation laws and anti-LGBTlaws are "culture war" issues, as are Jim Crow. The protests will presumably end when there are reasonable consequences for police summarily executing people on the street or torturing them to death in prison. That doesn't require perfection. People who complain about protests are generally happy with the status quo on the topic, and support protestors when they are not.
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#13 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 10:02 AM

The objective of protest is public awareness and mobilization. It becomes pointless when the public agrees with them to the point where officials have to take the issue seriously and take stands -- and be held accountable for them.
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#14 cmk

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 10:36 AM

How noble. Too bad you come across as blinded by your idealism.

It doesn't matter what you think should happen in your utopia, if by week 9 most fans are going "what, they're kneeling AGAIN?" -- and I guarantee you this will happen -- then the entire thing falls on its face.

Without specific goals, this will eventually be seen by the majority of the public as a negative, even people who support it right now.

They'd be better off saying specifically "we will do this the first and last game of every season to ensure ongoing awareness" or something like that.

ETA: Remember when the BLM people got in Bernie Sanders' face during the campaign? They got a lot of deserved negative flak for that. Same thing here but 100 fold.
Charles M. Kozierok - Administrator, TalkRadioSucks.com

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher


"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#15 Progressive whisperer

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 10:42 AM

If it were the ONLY protest, maybe. BLM will continue fighting elsewhere. Neither Civil Rights Movement nor the anti-Vietnam protests were over in a week, yet they arguably had some (although obviously not complete) effect.

What is the alternative if you view protest as ineffective? Armed revolution?

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#16 indy

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 10:48 AM

This is THE classic social tension argument. Should one be the Socratic gadfly (stinging the state “all day long and in all places”) or are there better methods? I think, barring violent upheaval, history has kind of shown that this really is the only method for non-violent change. You must be annoying enough for long enough or you lose.

#17 cmk

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 10:53 AM

I view ineffective protest as ineffective.

I think the kneeling is fine but it's like anything else, too much gets tuned out.

If you want to throw rotten eggs at someone's house, do it occasionally and unexpectedly, or they just get used to the smell.

The article's analogy to the pink ribbons is not perfect, but in the right ballpark.

ETA: I remember the last time I saw the flag flying at half mast, I thought to myself: do they ever fly it at full mast anymore?
Charles M. Kozierok - Administrator, TalkRadioSucks.com

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher


"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#18 drdredel

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 11:01 AM

View Postcmk, on 28 September 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

I think his point 1 is valid and one I hadn't considered. They are protesting, okay. What, specifically, do they want? What will cause them to stop the protest?

This isn't like the Catholic Church because these protests are very open and public and exposed to millions. Furthermore, they are happening in a place where many don't feel protest is appropriate (whether I agree or not).

The players risk backing themselves into a corner. If they stop protesting, those supporting them will criticize them. If they don't, this will eventually lose supporters and be opposed by increasing numbers. People don't like "excessive protest". There's a fatigue factor in any large, public statement.

As for the last point, he's talking about the culture wars in general, not this issue specifically. And yes, both sides are to blame.

I agree with you (and JVL) and disagree with LFC. This is not like MLK or women's rights or Vietnam protests where there were very specific demands being made. And JVL brings the pink ribbon up as an example of why this sort of open-ended protest ultimately doesn't "work".

That said, what Kaepernick has done is he has forced everyone to talk about it - and that's ultimately the beginning of what a protest is meant to do. However, what is still missing (and here I recommend Sam Harris' latest podcast with Mark Lilla) is that all protest ultimately has to lead to people moving into positions of power to execute the demands of the masses. Just talking about (even as loudly and pervasively as the NFL players are doing) doesn't actually get anything done.

However, CMK is entirely correct - how do they end this protest? At what point do they stop kneeling and what does that cessation mean? They got what they wanted? They're tired of kneeling? They've lost hope in affecting change? It made sense for Kaepernick to do it once in the same week as whatever crime he was protesting occurred - it's like flying the flag at half staff - it has a duration, and then it's back at the top of the pole even though no one has come back from the dead.

But more importantly - JVL is a writer for the Weekly Standard. He's taking a really reasonable stance and acknowledging all the things that Conservatives love to dismiss as "liberal whining". He's asking his readers to consider how pervasive this problem might actually be and shining a light on the fact that the biggest problem isn't the problem itself but our collective response to the problem which consists of one side being outraged and the other side insisting that there's nothing to see here (and he's taking his own side to task for being the force of inexplicable resistance).

I find this deserving of a lot of praise because if this article was written by someone at Slate or The NYT or even the WSJ it would be just more echo chamber wind shouting at the converted. But it's not! It's coming from an organ of official conservatism. And I find that very refresheartening and heartning.
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#19 LFC

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 12:30 PM

View Postcmk, on 28 September 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

I think his point 1 is valid and one I hadn't considered. They are protesting, okay. What, specifically, do they want? What will cause them to stop the protest?

To go back to my two examples of equal rights (women and blacks) we need to add gay rights to that as well. All made huge strides over the course of multiple decades. I suspect many people, especially those not impacted by one of those issues or those downright hostile to them, would consider these protests to be "excessive." And every one has had multiple demands including some that were not very specific demands. Stop sexually harassing women at work? Define exactly what that means without drifting off into the obvious examples. They fought for it and things have improved but since it's not 100% gone (especially at Fox News) then by CMK and Dr D's view they never should have marched in the first place. MLK is another great example. Contrary to how Dr D views that movement I see part of it trying to get new laws passed but much (likely most) to get attitudes to change and whites to behave differently. And to a large though obviously not total degree they worked. I stand by my examples. So should protests have stopped the instant the Civil Rights bill was passed? I'd say that would have been foolish and just begging for people to ignore the new laws.

I'd also like to take note of the author's examples. Income inequality? That's the end of an incredibly successful fight for women's rights that I mentioned so actually flies in the face of his own argument. The "disparate racial impacts of abortion?" I don't even know what he means but abortion is still highly protested on both sides trying to convince others of one position or the other. Since most people hold fairly definitive positions on the issue I'd say there is still an ongoing fight. And protests on both sides have changed people's thinking. Who knows which side will win but why should they stop if they truly believe in their causes? And "breast cancer awareness." He's now down to an example that is not even one concerning equality under the eyes of the law. At that point he lost his own thread.

Oh, yeah. The endpoint on all of my examples is equality. Just because it's tough to measure doesn't make it any less worth fighting, and protesting, for. And as we've seen it works.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

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""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#20 drdredel

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 01:13 PM

View PostLFC, on 28 September 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

To go back to my two examples of equal rights (women and blacks) we need to add gay rights to that as well. All made huge strides over the course of multiple decades. I suspect many people, especially those not impacted by one of those issues or those downright hostile to them, would consider these protests to be "excessive." And every one has had multiple demands including some that were not very specific demands. Stop sexually harassing women at work? Define exactly what that means without drifting off into the obvious examples. They fought for it and things have improved but since it's not 100% gone (especially at Fox News) then by CMK and Dr D's view they never should have marched in the first place. MLK is another great example. Contrary to how Dr D views that movement I see part of it trying to get new laws passed but much (likely most) to get attitudes to change and whites to behave differently. And to a large though obviously not total degree they worked. I stand by my examples. So should protests have stopped the instant the Civil Rights bill was passed? I'd say that would have been foolish and just begging for people to ignore the new laws.

I'd also like to take note of the author's examples. Income inequality? That's the end of an incredibly successful fight for women's rights that I mentioned so actually flies in the face of his own argument. The "disparate racial impacts of abortion?" I don't even know what he means but abortion is still highly protested on both sides trying to convince others of one position or the other. Since most people hold fairly definitive positions on the issue I'd say there is still an ongoing fight. And protests on both sides have changed people's thinking. Who knows which side will win but why should they stop if they truly believe in their causes? And "breast cancer awareness." He's now down to an example that is not even one concerning equality under the eyes of the law. At that point he lost his own thread.

Oh, yeah. The endpoint on all of my examples is equality. Just because it's tough to measure doesn't make it any less worth fighting, and protesting, for. And as we've seen it works.

It's the nature of the protest that JVL critiques (and I agree with that critique). Staging a march in the name of [fill in your grievance here] is a one time event. It starts - it ends. Grievance not settled? Have another march. No one assumes that if you march less often (or not at all) that you have given up or that you've decided that the grievance is settled. No one assumes anything, in fact. You can keep organizing protests.

But football players are going to keep turning up for their games so if they integrate a protest into their job it really is very visible what they do. And as JVL points out, what starts out as a totally reasonable expression of dissatisfaction turns into an abstract physical meme devoid of any actual philosophy.

If Kaepernick took the knee every week that there was a high profile murder by cop - that would be a sensible protest. One week he's on his knee - next week he's not. He's bringing attention to a SPECIFIC issue in a timely and visible manner.

But if he's on his knee every week and then half the players are with him and the other half aren't... what's the protest? What's the message? It just turns into a ceremonial bar brawl (as it now has) where the underlying message is totally muddled and we're arguing about whether it's disrespectful to our veterans to modify our behavior during the singing of the national anthem!! That's a detour through whoGivesAShitsVille if ever there was one, and I'm pretty sure Kaepernick, for all his desire to affect cultural change, is pretty unhappy with how this all turned out.

But you're misunderstanding me if you think that I don't believe in protest. I think it's a necessary part of the democratic process. It's just not always effective and not always conducted in a way that allows the most people to participate. And in this case, it's a giant mess.
The Blind have lost their sense of "sight";
The Deaf have lost their sense of "hearing";
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