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Sanders on foreign policy


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#1 Progressive whisperer

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 11:20 AM

This appears quite good, I need to focus on it more than I can right now.

http://www.lawyersgu...-foreign-policy

We really need to develop ideas beyond GOP/Dump juvenilism.
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#2 MSheridan

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 02:02 PM

Yes, it is good. I believe Sanders might have done better than he did in the 2016 primary campaign had this side of his political thinking come up more. Aside from one speech regarding Israel, I cannot now recall that this got much play at all, even though a great many people on both sides of the partisan divide are sick and tired of the existing interventionist status quo. It was an obvious angle of attack that didn't get much play from the campaign. It seemed too obvious an omission to be anything but deliberate. At a guess, the calculus behind this could have been that it was believed likely to damage Clinton's chances to win more than it was likely to help Sanders own chances, given that Trump was occasionally expressing similar-sounding sentiments.

I'm glad Sanders is saying it now, but we need a lot of younger politicians signing on. I strongly doubt Sanders will be a Presidential candidate ever again, so I'd like to hear this sort of thing from someone or (better yet) several someones who will.

I'd also like to point out that although Trump is personally incapable of maturity (if he hasn't gotten there by the age of 71, he never will), the idea of armed intervention to promote American interests/ideals is hardly unique to him or the Republican Party. In fact, Democrats have a history with the concept that long predates the Republican fetishistic obsession with military dick-waving. This has been a bipartisan problem for a long time, even though the wing of the Democratic Party that objects is considerably larger and more vocal than their GOP counterparts.

#3 Bact PhD

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 06:00 PM

All interesting stuff. I don't seem to recall a whisper of this thought pattern twenty-one or so months ago. I suspect, though, if this had been this thought out and put on display during the campaign, he would have been roasted by commentators representing Team Red and Team Blue alike.

Quote

I'd also like to point out that... the idea of armed intervention to promote American interests/ideals is hardly unique to [Trump] or the Republican Party. In fact, Democrats have a history with the concept that long predates the Republican fetishistic obsession with military dick-waving. This has been a bipartisan problem for a long time,


Good to see you back, MS. You've been missed in these parts.

Yup. And a perfect illustration of the "poster child" for this problem has been running on PBS the last few nights. Like many on TRS, Chem PhD is of an age where the draft loomed large; I'm just young enough where my recollections of it are of the nightly news broadcasts from places with weird names like "Phnom Penh"...and old enough that the subject wasn't going to be covered in a HS history textbook. Over the course of watching the installments, if I had thought of it sooner, I could have created an in-house drinking game involving phrases we've said to each other such as "What's changed?", or "We STILL don't get it", or "Where have we heard THAT phrase (uttered by a US government official) recently?"

Mind-boggling, indeed.

I've also come to appreciate how much the present-day distrust in All Things Government was rooted in what went on throughout the '60s and into the '70s. All Ronnie had to do was tap into that already-existing pool of distrust and provide that elixir to the masses...and presto! An entire generation-plus who deeply, sincerely believes that Government Is The Problem, period.

Edited by Bact PhD, 22 September 2017 - 06:05 PM.

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#4 MSheridan

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 08:47 PM

View PostBact PhD, on 22 September 2017 - 06:00 PM, said:

All interesting stuff. I don't seem to recall a whisper of this thought pattern twenty-one or so months ago. I suspect, though, if this had been this thought out and put on display during the campaign, he would have been roasted by commentators representing Team Red and Team Blue alike.

You could well be right about that. But considering everything, I don't know but that getting attacked by the semi-official gatekeepers of both parties over his foreign policy might not have proved a positive for him, not a negative. It certainly didn't stop Trump. Besides, they were going to slam Sanders for being outside the mainstream anyway. One could argue he might as well have been hung for a sheep as a lamb.

But then, I never did like Sanders as a campaigner. He even managed to eventually turn me against him in the primary, and that took some doing. Still, there is an opportunity here, I think. A not insignificant slice of the non-Democratic populace can still be won over and this could be one way to get them (at least, so long as a politician is very careful to appear pragmatically anti-war but NOT anti-soldier).

#5 AnBr

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 10:21 PM

Somewhere here is a link to an article from a journalist that has been following Sanders since Burlington where as mayor he had a tendency to be needlessly confrontational, even when all parties were already in agreement.
"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

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The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995

#6 cmk

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 08:09 AM

I feel the same way about him as I do his opponent. Both need to disappear from public life and the sooner, the better.

I didn't read the article, I didn't read the speech, because I don't care about anything he has to say about anything now. He's done too much damage, lost too much credibility, and still refuses to accept responsibility for his major role in our current presidential disaster.

I don't mean him any harm. I wish him a peaceful retirement in a nice home on the shores of Lake Champlain. I just wish he would SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY. Because he and everything he stands for are and will continue to be a major impediment to any sort of functional party in this country.
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#7 LFC

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 06:16 PM

View Postcmk, on 23 September 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

I just wish he would SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY. Because he and everything he stands for are and will continue to be a major impediment to any sort of functional party in this country.

Good luck with that. First the first time in his life he's got a national podium and he's going to cling to it with both hands. Expect him to cause trouble in both 2018 and 2020 all so he can talk, talk, talk about his ideas. And when it comes time to rally around the 2020 nominee you can expect about as much help from him as the last time, i.e. not much.
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#8 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 06:20 PM

Democrats haven't had a clear foreign policy vision for a very long time, and what the Republicans had is being burned to the ground by Trump.

Sanders is stepping into a vacuum on this, and as a first mover he's got a serious opportunity -- which, so far, he hasn't blown. As y'all know I'm not exactly a fan of his but there's some chance here for him to do some good.
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#9 cmk

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 07:37 PM

I disagree.

If the Democrats had a young up-and-comer with charisma, like you-know-who 10 years ago, THAT person would have a serious opportunity.

Sanders is a washed-up distraction and rallying point for the most extreme elements on the left, who will never allow the Democrats to get and hold power.

And no, I have no illusions that he's going anywhere.
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"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher


"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#10 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 09:03 PM

There is a role for 'elder statesmen' besides running for the championship. Coaches, strategists -- people who have experience and perspective and can take a longer view than the next election. Youth has its strengths but it's not everything.

If Richard fucking Nixon could play elder statesman and confidential advisor to politicians of both US parties for a generation, I'll give Sanders a chance at the job. Right up to the point where it all becomes about him -- that's it.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
The purpose of "defense spending" isn't "defense," it's "spending."
Our Party! In her relations with other Americans may she always be in the right; but Our Party, right or wrong!

#11 golden_valley

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:52 AM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 23 September 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

There is a role for 'elder statesmen' besides running for the championship. Coaches, strategists -- people who have experience and perspective and can take a longer view than the next election. Youth has its strengths but it's not everything.

If Richard fucking Nixon could play elder statesman and confidential advisor to politicians of both US parties for a generation, I'll give Sanders a chance at the job. Right up to the point where it all becomes about him -- that's it.

Sanders a statesman? He's not really shown much ability or know-how to get his ideas through Congress. How can he help anyone?

#12 cmk

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:58 AM

Right. He's not seen as an elder statement. He's seen as a kook who doesn't care about the Democratic Party.

The first isn't entirely true, but it's somewhat true. The second isn't entirely true, but it's mostly true.

This guy is not the standard bearer for the Democrats. It already IS all about him. I do think he cares about people but only in the way he deems correct. And we've already seen where it leads.
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"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher


"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#13 Sinan

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 09:07 AM

When the party has no real leader, others end up filling the gap even if they do not want to play that role. Post-Obama/Clinton, the left has no real leader or national identity of their own making. There is no opposition movement rallying around well known policies or values. Into this vacuum steps Bernie and the right wing. Today the right wing media empire defines the left, most people who are not lefties accept the lies on the right as gospel. We need a strong solid platform and leaders who state it over and over again for more than one election cycle. Until that happens, folks like Bernie will seem to be the voice of the left if only because they are the only voice.
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#14 cmk

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 10:52 AM

The problem is that Sanders reinforces most of the right-wing stereotypes of the left, which makes the effort of recapturing the center increasingly difficult.

He's not helping. He's making things worse.

If he's the voice of the left, look forward to right-wing rule for a long time, up to and including Pussygrab getting reelected.
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"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher


"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#15 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 11:18 AM

And Obama was a radical socialist.

To quote an old saying (have fun finding the source): "Hear the truth from one who speaks it."

We can't shut Sanders up, and if we insist on rejecting good advice because the Right caricatures the source, well, "Crooked Hillary." They will always slander people even slightly to the left of Calhoun, blame Jim Crow on modern Democrats, and insist that the NAZIs were leftists. Can't be helped. If someone speaks wisdom, pay attention. Don't reject it because of the source any more than you would take foolish advice because it came from a celebrity.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
The purpose of "defense spending" isn't "defense," it's "spending."
Our Party! In her relations with other Americans may she always be in the right; but Our Party, right or wrong!

#16 cmk

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 12:05 PM

I reject things because of their sources all the time. But that's not even the real point here. The issue isn't judging the validity of what is being said based on the source, but rather the usefulness of what is being said based on the source. If you want to portray someone as an 'elder statesman' that comes with certain prerequisites. Sanders doesn't have them.

You bring up right-wing caricatures, yet neither is entirely false, and both were validated by the candidates themselves. Sanders ran on some very far-left proposals that he should have known would be his death knell if he ever made the general. He actually WAS a radical socialist in his youth, if he's not one now.

Clinton IS crooked, IMO. Her "trust problem" is because she and her husband have never come across as honest and plain-dealing about anything since they entered public office. And what did she do to address the claims that she was crooked during the election? Acted like a crooked person does: avoided tackling criticisms, waved from an ivory tower, tried to change the subject. Slick Willie got away with it, but he got that name for a reason.

The caricatures matter because they do have some truth and because, for better or worse, they stick. Sanders is damaged goods, too old, too liberal, too white, and too belligerent. He lacks essential charisma. He has no future. And yet he'll be pushing 80 in 2020 and still probably want to run. The Democrats are wasting time and energy on him, and encouraging him to stay in the limelight. I for one will not.
Charles M. Kozierok - Administrator, TalkRadioSucks.com

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher


"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#17 Sinan

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 12:31 PM

View Postcmk, on 24 September 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

I reject things because of their sources all the time. But that's not even the real point here. The issue isn't judging the validity of what is being said based on the source, but rather the usefulness of what is being said based on the source. If you want to portray someone as an 'elder statesman' that comes with certain prerequisites. Sanders doesn't have them.

You bring up right-wing caricatures, yet neither is entirely false, and both were validated by the candidates themselves. Sanders ran on some very far-left proposals that he should have known would be his death knell if he ever made the general. He actually WAS a radical socialist in his youth, if he's not one now.

Clinton IS crooked, IMO. Her "trust problem" is because she and her husband have never come across as honest and plain-dealing about anything since they entered public office. And what did she do to address the claims that she was crooked during the election? Acted like a crooked person does: avoided tackling criticisms, waved from an ivory tower, tried to change the subject. Slick Willie got away with it, but he got that name for a reason.

The caricatures matter because they do have some truth and because, for better or worse, they stick. Sanders is damaged goods, too old, too liberal, too white, and too belligerent. He lacks essential charisma. He has no future. And yet he'll be pushing 80 in 2020 and still probably want to run. The Democrats are wasting time and energy on him, and encouraging him to stay in the limelight. I for one will not.

lot of truth here but I have no idea what too liberal means, he is merely what a typical politician in Europe is....a too liberal person would be talking about land redistribution perhaps or rent control or maybe a wealth tax...hell, can someone please start talking about these?....
"anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist."
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"A person who reads books lives a thousand lives. A person who never reads lives only one"
George Martin

"Is that a real poncho or a Sears poncho?"
Zappa

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#18 HockeyDon

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:21 PM

View PostSinan, on 24 September 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

lot of truth here but I have no idea what too liberal means, he is merely what a typical politician in Europe is....a too liberal person would be talking about land redistribution perhaps or rent control or maybe a wealth tax...hell, can someone please start talking about these?....

I have a bookmark saved on my work computer. It's something like "what a real liberal media would talk about". If I remember I'll post tomorrow morning.
Well, fuck.

How can I be expected to distinguish BS from reality when so much of my reality is utter BS?!

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#19 AnBr

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:27 PM

Please do.
"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995

#20 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:31 PM

http://www.dw.com/en...ison/a-38454970
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
The purpose of "defense spending" isn't "defense," it's "spending."
Our Party! In her relations with other Americans may she always be in the right; but Our Party, right or wrong!





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