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Republican Party has ‘flat out lost its mind’


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#1961 LFC

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Posted 23 November 2020 - 04:39 PM

Some Republicans who are actually concerned with the safety of our nation are calling on Trump to get the transition rolling.

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Perhaps it’s easier to speak out against President Trump and the flailing, chaotic, dwindling days of his presidency when you’re no longer in an official position.

That much has been suggested by the secrecy we’ve seen from Republican lawmakers and senators who are not only keeping their acceptance of Joe Biden’s claim to the presidency under wraps, but also their criticism of Trump. Sen. Chris Coons (D-DE) and journalist Carl Bernstein has revealed as much in recent days.

But the urgency with which a group of former Republican national security experts pressed Republican senators and lawmakers to end the placation of Trump’s charade today shows us a fresh wave of concern over the broader damage that President Trump’s delegitimization crusade is having.

A group of 100 Republican ex-national security officials — many of whom were part of the George W. Bush administration, including his former homeland security secretary Tom Ridge — signed a statement urging “Republican leaders — especially those in Congress — to publicly demand that President Trump cease his anti-democratic assault on the integrity of the presidential election.” They argued Trump’s efforts to stonewall the transition pose a grave, unprecedented threat, especially amid a pandemic.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#1962 LFC

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Posted 23 November 2020 - 08:58 PM

Jennifer Rubin on Republicans in 2024.

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The 2024 Republican presidential primary field may be large, unless President Trump hangs around. Ironically, potential GOP contenders have increased the chances that Trump will return by refusing to call out his unconstitutional assault on the sanctity of our elections and his embrace of deranged conspiracy theories.

Let’s say Trump does not run again. When Republican candidates such as Sens. Josh Hawley (Mo.), Tom Cotton (Ark.), Ted Cruz (Tex.) and Marco Rubio (Fla.) come around looking for support, the country should dismiss them out of hand. They repeatedly failed basic tests of citizenship — let alone leadership — forfeiting their moral authority to serve in any government position.

Let us recall what they did and did not do (and for brevity, let’s just stick to the year 2020):
  • When evidence was replete of Trump’s impeachable acts, they refused to call witnesses such as former national security adviser John Bolton and acquitted Trump.
  • When evidence came to light that Trump had been informed of Russian bounties on the heads of U.S. troops, but repeatedly refused to raise the issue with President Vladimir Putin during phone calls, they did not insist on hearings, condemn Trump for dereliction of duty or ever demand a satisfactory explanation.
  • When Trump attempted in advance to delegitimize the election, falsely claiming absentee ballots were inherently fraudulent, they did not denounce him as undermining our democracy.
  • When the postmaster general’s conflicts of interest and deliberate slowdowns at the U.S. Postal Service came to light, they did not demand his resignation.
  • When we learned that Trump told The Post’s Bob Woodward that covid-19 was an airborne virus much more dangerous than the flu — while telling the public something entirely different — they did not demand an investigation or condemn the president’s actions.
  • When Trump denigrated mask-wearing; held packed rallies during a pandemic; took his Secret Service detail for a spin around Walter Reed National Military Medical Center despite having covid-19; held likely superspreader events at the White House; and failed to take proper precautions for White House staff, leading to scores of sick employees, they were AWOL.
  • When Trump filed dozens of spurious lawsuits and presented baseless claims of voter fraud in the 2020 election, they did not cry foul or insist the presidential transition get underway. Instead, they suggested the lawsuits should work their way through the system.
  • When Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) contacted Georgia’s secretary of state and allegedly suggested he throw out some ballots, they did not criticize him or call for any inquiry.
  • When Trump contacted a member of the Wayne County, Mich., canvassing board after her vote to certify the results (after which she attempted to retract her vote), they did not admonish the president or warn him against interfering with local officials.
  • When he called Michigan lawmakers to the White House, apparently to pressure them into putting forward a competing slate of electors for him rather than for the rightful winner in the state (by about 150,000 votes), they did not object.
  • When Trump and his lawyers specifically targeted heavily African American cities in an effort to disenfranchise them, they were quiet.
  • When it became clear that Trump had no legitimate legal claims and was trying to undo the results of a democratic election by getting state officials to thwart the will of the people, they were mute.
At every turn, these Republicans proved themselves incapable of putting country or democracy over Trump. Through their silence, they were complicit in undermining democratic elections and convincing the base that the election was stolen. They failed their basic obligations as citizens of a democracy and their oaths of office that obligate them to defend the Constitution.

It is hard to imagine any individuals less fit to serve as president — any individuals not named “Trump,” that is.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#1963 golden_valley

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 11:38 AM

 LFC, on 23 November 2020 - 08:58 PM, said:


I doubt the people Rubin named stayed silent to protect or support Trump. They stayed silent in the hope that the Trump supporters will swing their way when the time comes. And there is no way Rubio will ever, ever be taken seriously as a presidential nominee by anyone. He's a lightweight and he went after Trump during the 2016 primaries.

#1964 LFC

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 12:10 PM

Another company that cozied up to the right-wingnuts just found out that when you live by the purity test you can just as easily die by the purity test.

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The far right thought it had found the ideal breakfast beverage company. Then it took a big sip of Black Rifle Coffee and checked the news.

For years, Black Rifle Coffee Company has been at the vanguard of an emerging conservative coffee movement. Customers can start their day with a “Thin Blue Line” Keurig cup, or wind down with a nice mug of “Combat Cocoa.” This isn’t coffee for WIMPS and CIVILIANS, the company’s branding implies; it’s TACTICAL CAFFEINATION for OPERATORS.

But not even that branding has been enough to save BRCC from attacks by its far-right former fans, who accuse the company of being inadequately militant because it declined to sponsor a teenager accused of murdering Black Lives Matter protesters.

BRCC’s trouble began shortly after accused murderer Kyle Rittenhouse was bailed out of jail last week. Rittenhouse is accused of shooting three people (two of them fatally) at a Black Lives Matter protest in Kenosha, Wisconsin earlier this year. Rittenhouse, 17, became a hero of the militant far right, especially of groups like the Proud Boys that openly lust for violence against the left.

Shortly after supporters posted Rittenhouse’s $2 million bail, the host of a conservative podcast that partners with BRCC tweeted a picture of Rittenhouse in a BRCC shirt. The picture, plus its caption (“Kyle Rittenhouse drinks the best coffee in America”) led viewers to believe BRCC was partnering with Rittenhouse.

That wasn’t the case, BRCC clarified this weekend. In a video, the company’s CEO Evan Hafer stated that BRCC had not and would not sponsor Rittenhouse.

“We’re not in the business of profiting from tragedy,” the CEO of the gun-themed coffee company said. “We’re not in the business of profiting from this event. We have zero interest in collecting one dollar from any of this. It is ethically inappropriate for us to do so, or even give the perception [of profiting].”

That would be an uncontroversial statement from virtually any other CEO. But not, apparently, from a leader in the world of conservative coffee. Hafer’s statement prompted a hypercaffeinated meltdown from portions of the right, which castigated BRCC as traitors.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#1965 golden_valley

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 12:32 PM

 LFC, on 24 November 2020 - 12:10 PM, said:

Another company that cozied up to the right-wingnuts just found out that when you live by the purity test you can just as easily die by the purity test.

It appears that cancel culture exists in the wing nut world too.

#1966 LFC

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 05:37 PM

We all know just how much Congressional Republicans, especially House Republicans are brimming with stupidity and ignorance coupled with arrogance. Gohmert, Gaetz, Nunes, and Jordan are prime examples. Now we have Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ) who had be less conspicuous but is definitely in the running for most likely to have sustained serious and irreparable brain damage in the past.

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Gosar’s trolley most recently came off the tracks with this amazing tweet yesterday, suggesting that Republicans model themselves after one of America’s enemies from World War II.

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The America First agenda is just in its infancy. There are 75 million of us.

Also. Did you know some Japanese soldiers kept fighting for decades after the war? @Cernovich @ali @kelliwardaz pic.twitter.com/w74Dfvw3fX

— Paul Gosar (@DrPaulGosar) November 24, 2020

Yes, Gosar is imploring his fellow Trumpsters to hang on like that great Japanese war hero who didn’t surrender almost three decades after the war. By then, the American culinary scene was becoming graced with thousands of great sushi restaurants, so Teruo Nakomura didn’t get his due until now.

Gosar’s tweet honoring the memory of soldiers who our Greatest Generation died fighting wasn’t all that out of character. This is, after all, a man whose reelection campaign for Congress in 2018 provoked an ad opposing his candidacy from six of his nine siblings.

“A family defends its honor,” brother David Gosar, a lawyer, declared, “We’ve got to stand up for our good name. This is not who we are.”

That may be, but it’s pretty clear who Gosar is. Perhaps his first 15 minutes of fame came in 2015, when he distinguished himself, in a sense, as the only member of Congress to boycott an address by Pope Francis, who he had accused of having “adopted all of the socialist talking points, wrapped false science and ideology into ‘climate justice.” Gosar fundraised off his pigheadedness.

“When the Pope chooses to act and talk like a leftist politician, then he can expect to be treated like one,” Gosar proclaimed in an email

When a Congressman chooses to act like a lunatic, then he can expect to get retweeted by a former reality TV star. As part of Donald Trump’s morning virtual pout, Gosar received the highest civilian honor of for a wingnut, as he made the feed:


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It’s fair to say that as Trumpism survives Trump, Gosar will emerge as an esteemed leader of the twisted tribe. He certainly has been burnishing his wingnut credentials: Last month Gosar was one of just 17 Republicans in the House refusing to vote to condemn QAnon and reject its conspiracy, at least one of which he once “accidentally” retweeted.

That fits nicely with a rap sheet after just three terms in Congress that includes, but is not limited to, outright climate denial, unbending opposition to legalizing Dreamers, demanding the impeachment for “high crimes and misdemeanors” President Obama’s EPA administrator Gina McCarthy for–among other atrocities–opposing private drilling for gas, oil and minerals on National Park land and for leading a one-man charge to reinstate disgraced racist Rep. Steve King.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#1967 golden_valley

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 06:10 PM

Glad to see that Gosar's family is still speaking out...at least one of them is.

#1968 LFC

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Posted 25 November 2020 - 12:02 PM

After being a poster child for Congressional insider trading Sen. David Perdue (R-GA) went right back to it. I guess he figures the profits he makes will far outweigh the worst punishment he can expect which would be to lose his seat. And he knows that only an election will do that. The Republicans will never touch him with such a slim majority.

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Sen. David Perdue’s timing on stock deals continues to be immaculate. According to the Associated Press, the Georgia Republican sold off millions of stock in financial tech company Cardlytics, whose board of directors he once sat upon, in January—right as Congress received word on the potential economic devastation that the novel coronavirus outbreak could bring. In March, while the Dow Jones Industrial Average lurched toward a three-year low, Perdue bought his stock back. His shares have since quadrupled in value, according to the AP. Earlier this month, The Daily Beast reported that Perdue bought stock in a Navy contractor BWX Technologies right before being named chair of the Senate Armed Services Subcommittee on Seapower. He then worked on a defense bill that steered money to a submarine part only made by the company.

A spokesperson for Perdue—who is currently fighting for his seat in a Jan. 5 runoff election that will decide control of the Senate—told the AP the senator had been cleared of wrongdoing but didn’t elaborate.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#1969 golden_valley

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Posted 25 November 2020 - 01:11 PM

 LFC, on 25 November 2020 - 12:02 PM, said:

After being a poster child for Congressional insider trading Sen. David Perdue (R-GA) went right back to it. I guess he figures the profits he makes will far outweigh the worst punishment he can expect which would be to lose his seat. And he knows that only an election will do that. The Republicans will never touch him with such a slim majority.

He's making so much money I wonder why he even wants to be Senator anymore. How much money is enough?

#1970 LFC

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Posted 25 November 2020 - 01:52 PM

 golden_valley, on 25 November 2020 - 01:11 PM, said:

He's making so much money I wonder why he even wants to be Senator anymore. How much money is enough?

Dunno'. Maybe ask the remaining Koch brother.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#1971 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 25 November 2020 - 02:49 PM

 golden_valley, on 25 November 2020 - 01:11 PM, said:

He's making so much money I wonder why he even wants to be Senator anymore. How much money is enough?

Too much is never enough.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#1972 Traveler

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Posted 25 November 2020 - 06:02 PM

 golden_valley, on 25 November 2020 - 01:11 PM, said:

He's making so much money I wonder why he even wants to be Senator anymore. How much money is enough?

They cannot accept losing ANY of it once they got it. Anyway to do that is the new norm.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#1973 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 27 November 2020 - 06:15 PM

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But if fear of losing your job keeps you from defending your country, you don’t deserve the job. Frankly, you don’t even deserve the country.

The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#1974 LFC

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Posted 30 November 2020 - 04:12 PM

Oh, look! Another "I'm not a racist but..." defense. The lie of an excuse he used was worthy of a 5-year old, and an immature 5-year old at that.

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The chairman of the Republican Party in Texas’s Harris County has resigned after months of controversy for his racist Facebook post in which he implied that Martin Luther King, Jr. was a monkey.

The Houston Chronicle reports that Nielsen stepped down after having been “dogged by his social media post that displayed a Martin Luther King Jr. quote next to a banana.”

Nielsen was heavily criticized by fellow Republicans for the post, which came in the wake of George Floyd’s killing by Minneapolis police officers, and he initially said that he would not take over as Harris County GOP chairman before reversing himself shortly afterward.

At the time of the post, Nielsen claimed he had “zero malicious intent” behind it and he didn’t intend to offend anyone.

“I wanted to speak out against the ensuing violence, burning and looting of small businesses across the nation, I simply wanted to say that it’s bananas to act this way and that peaceful protesters have shown us a better way forward,” Nielsen said at the time. “I grew up in a home where saying ‘bananas’ instead of curse words kept us from being punished, but I am not afraid to confront and challenge long-held manners of belief and speech.”

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#1975 LFC

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Posted 30 November 2020 - 05:27 PM

Two writes on TPM Cafe make the case that today's conservatism, not just Trump, was doomed to fail the test that COVID presented.

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It would be easy — and not entirely wrong — to blame these failures on the particular personality in the White House right now. After all, President Trump, during the course of this crisis, has made some truly outrageous statements. And his posture towards the crisis, especially as the election neared, flew in the face of not only experts and local officials, but of common sense as well. And now that Trump has been defeated in the election, it would be equally easy, and comforting, to assume that with his personal irresponsibility gone, we will be finally rid of the main obstacle to an effective COVID response.

But focusing solely on the ousting of this particular president and his friends — and on their considerable failures as leaders — risks missing a deeper, more fundamental point: that though Donald Trump lost reelection, the ideology and belief system underpinning so many of the debacles of his presidency prevails, and was always doomed to fail the country in the face of a disaster like this one. A response to COVID-19 and the economic crisis it triggered guided by and grounded in a conservative worldview would always have failed us, regardless of who was in the White House. At base, conservative ideology itself was just as responsible for the failure to appropriately and effectively respond to this crisis as Trump’s personal failings were. And that ideology will still be present — rife, in fact — in our government long after Trump is gone.

Now, like any ideology, conservatism is not homogenous. It spans a spectrum of ideas that can roughly be grouped under a broad umbrella. But there are some important core tenets of the conservative movement that most, if not all, adherents share to some degree. First, conservatism posits that that government itself tends to cause more problems than it solves, and that free markets — unencumbered by government intervention — are always best positioned to allocate resources and improve society. Second, modern conservatism argues that the economy is primarily driven by capital and its owners, and as such, the interests of capital owners are paramount. And third, conservatives tend to see differences and disparities along racial and gender lines as either irrelevant, temporary, or — in the most pernicious form — deserved.

Certainly, conservatism means more than just these three ideas. But these three in particular, and their corollaries, are all critical tent poles for the modern conservative movement that permeate all levels of our government and economy. And as we lay out in detail below, these are arguments that fall flat generally and are especially ill-suited to the current COVID crisis.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#1976 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 30 November 2020 - 08:01 PM

As I have been known to ask (repeatedly): how does Libertarianism, or any other variant of 'conservatism', address public health? Epidemiology, in particular? How does it address hugely beneficial public goods like weather monitoring and forecasting?

Neither can be practically monetized, and both are too expensive for any voluntary public charity. And yet ...
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#1977 baw1064

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Posted 30 November 2020 - 08:30 PM

 D. C. Sessions, on 30 November 2020 - 08:01 PM, said:

As I have been known to as (repeatedly): how does Libertarianism, or any other variant of 'conservatism', address public health? Epidemiology, in particular? How does it address hugely beneficial public goods like weather monitoring and forecasting?

Neither can be practically monetized, and both are too expensive for any voluntary public charity. And yet ...

You're kind of setting up a libertarian strawman there, in the same vein as implying that anyone who's a socialist must want to seize all private property. A more reasonable version of libertarianism (which admittedly, is pretty absent from our political dialog) would express a preference for having things handled by the market, unless there's a compelling reason why, in certain endeavors, this would be impractical or counterproductive. IMO, healthcare, and public health in particular, is one of the best examples of (pick your preferred terminology) Tragedy of the Commons/market failure.
"strained legal arguments without merit and speculative accusations, unpled in the operative complaint and unsupported by evidence"

#1978 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 30 November 2020 - 09:15 PM

'Conservatives' [1] deny the existence of 'society' [2], public goods, and, externalities. This puts a very low upper bound on their practical policy choices regarding those phenomena.

[1] There may be some who claim to be 'conservative' and recognize the existence of public goods and private externalities. In theory. Actual sightings have not been confirmed.
[2] See famous and oft-repeated Thatcher quote
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#1979 LFC

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Posted 30 November 2020 - 10:35 PM

 baw1064, on 30 November 2020 - 08:30 PM, said:

You're kind of setting up a libertarian strawman there, in the same vein as implying that anyone who's a socialist must want to seize all private property. A more reasonable version of libertarianism (which admittedly, is pretty absent from our political dialog) would express a preference for having things handled by the market, unless there's a compelling reason why, in certain endeavors, this would be impractical or counterproductive. IMO, healthcare, and public health in particular, is one of the best examples of (pick your preferred terminology) Tragedy of the Commons/market failure.

I'm going to have to call bullshit on calling this a "libertarian strawman." The Libertarian Party platform is pure free market when it comes to healthcare. That doesn't mean there isn't "a more reasonable version of libertarianism" someplace. It's just doesn't seem to be anywhere within the mainstream libertarian world. It seems like the other brand of libertarianism you describe is more of the exception. From the Libertarian Party website:

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Libertarians believe that healthcare prices would decrease and quality and availability of healthcare would increase if providers were freed from government meddling and control.

Virtually every person wants access to quality healthcare at an affordable price. Libertarians think the best way to achieve this is by removing government interference and enabling free markets.

Government inappropriately controls our healthcare in many ways:
  • Government and a handful of insurance companies have a virtual monopoly as payers. Because of this, they make most of the decisions about what kinds of healthcare are available.
  • Government regulates where, when, and who may open new healthcare facilities.
  • Government agencies greatly slow development of and access to new medicines, devices, and technologies that may improve quality of care and reduce cost of care.

Understanding how markets have operated, particularly in the area of healthcare, I read the above as the ramblings of children who don't remotely understand the real world or the people that inhabit it. Oh, yeah. And tort reform. I find that a particularly interesting stance since I'd always heard that use of the courts was the preferred methodology of going after wrongdoers. (Better to punish after people get hurt rather than regulate up front.)


I read several other articles that talk about libertarian views on healthcare here, here, and here. I was unimpressed by all of them.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#1980 baw1064

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Posted 30 November 2020 - 11:11 PM

The Libertarian Party is a bunch of cranks, with their ideology perpetually set to 11. Again, by that token, all socialists must have a re-enactment of Mao's Cultural Revolution on their agenda.

You're also conflating wishing to minimize government as much as is reasonable (admittedly, this is a value judgement and different people will have different ideas on where to draw the line) with conservatism. Conservatives generally like the idea of having an intrusive government which seeks to preserve the status quo, upholds "traditional values" etc. Which is inherently at odds with a minimalist government.

I assume you take issue with the 2-D plot of political leanings?
"strained legal arguments without merit and speculative accusations, unpled in the operative complaint and unsupported by evidence"





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