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The Trump / Republican / Russian War on Facts, Data, and Reality


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#81 baw1064

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 02:18 PM

View PostLFC, on 09 March 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

This is the one sentence I disagree with. The Republicans haven't forgotten the lessons. They're actively trying to restore the Gilded Age and when the next Depression hits prop the wealthy back up again. Hey, it worked in 2008 and the likes of the Kochs and Mercers know it.

But in the Gilded Age at least actual things got built (railroads, steel mills, etc.) which enabled economic growth ("means of production"). Today there seems to be a disproportionate amount of effort spent on gaming the system financially. Which doesn't produce anything of long term value, except for the beneficiary's bank account.
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#82 Progressive whisperer

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 02:23 PM

View Postbaw1064, on 09 March 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:



But in the Gilded Age at least actual things got built (railroads, steel mills, etc.) which enabled economic growth ("means of production"). Today there seems to be a disproportionate amount of effort spent on gaming the system financially. Which doesn't produce anything of long term value, except for the beneficiary's bank account.

The important things to be built are the personal and family fortunes. They just figured out they could accomplish that without all the pesky construction; indeed sometimes by outright destruction of functioning companies.

Trump delenda est.
GOP delenda est.
Resist!

#83 golden_valley

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 02:25 PM

View Postbaw1064, on 09 March 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

But in the Gilded Age at least actual things got built (railroads, steel mills, etc.) which enabled economic growth ("means of production"). Today there seems to be a disproportionate amount of effort spent on gaming the system financially. Which doesn't produce anything of long term value, except for the beneficiary's bank account.

I see what you're saying and agree about the GOP. But I was thinking more in terms of individual people/voters who have forgotten and/or never bothered to learn how protected they were by unions, work place safety regulations, safety regulations in general...etc.

#84 baw1064

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 02:27 PM

Essentially, I'm saying that things are worse now than in the Gilded Age.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#85 andydp

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 02:36 PM

View Postbaw1064, on 09 March 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

Essentially, I'm saying that things are worse now than in the Gilded Age.

Exactly !! In the Gilded Age "they" knew their places.
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If you've got public schools paid for by taxpayers, you're in a socialist nation. If you have public roads paid for by taxpayers, socialist nation. If you've got public defense (police, fire, military, coast guard) paid for by tax dollars, socialist nation. If you're in a nation that has nationalized or localized delivery of services that are not paid for by users alone, you're in a socialist nation- the only question is how socialist. As I see it, we have the military pay to protecting the shipping lanes for our fuel needs which makes up very socialist. In a capitalist nation, the people supplying the oil would pay for their own defense force.


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#86 Progressive whisperer

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 02:50 PM

View Postbaw1064, on 09 March 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

Essentially, I'm saying that things are worse now than in the Gilded Age.

That depends. We haven’t seen the National Guard shoot down strikers (yet). Not all workplace safety rules are repealed (yet), most poeple don’t live in company supplied housing from which they are ejected as soon as they leave the company.

The difference is the only “legacy” the .01% cares about is a bigger fortune than they had last year, and maybe destruction of the “liberal” state and American democracy. In the interests of that bigger fortune.
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#87 pnwguy

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 03:52 PM

View PostProgressive whisperer, on 09 March 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

That depends. We haven’t seen the National Guard shoot down strikers (yet). Not all workplace safety rules are repealed (yet), most poeple don’t live in company supplied housing from which they are ejected as soon as they leave the company.
Well, Erik Prince might intend to form the 21st century version of the Pinkerton's, and he'll do the dirty work for a profit. And the survivors can be housed in some for-profit prisons.
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#88 AnBr

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 07:17 PM

View Postgolden_valley, on 09 March 2018 - 11:08 AM, said:

We are in a transition period, moving away from industrialization as a basis for organizing, not just the economy but for overall society as well. Industrialization let us create a middle class and define America's values based on where you fit into the economy. It let America "win" WW II and dominate the world because the rest of the world was devastated or not industrialized yet. It gave people enough money to allow them to stop worrying about subsistence. They didn't even have to grow their own food anymore thereby losing the sense that nature is in control. I suspect it also allowed people to feel they made it all on their own (as long as they have money) and they lost the sense of how precarious success and the ability to live well can be. I suspect the latter also led to the abandonment of religion and community groups because there was no more need to clump together to sustain life.

What is industrialization being replaced with? A high tech and service economy that doesn't need high school grads to work in factories. An economy that has a few dominant economic players and the whole wide world for them to operate in. Plus we have a government that forgot the lessons of the Gilded Age and then the Depression of the 1930s, so individuals are not protected from the excesses of the economic system. Many people didn't even realize how protected they once were. Yeah, people are crazy and stupid right now because the lessons they learned and relied on from the industrial age don't work anymore. They're looking for a time machine.

This would fit in nicely in the Minimum Wage thread where we have discussed automation and approaching "post work society." Most of the nearer consequences are not pretty. One of the few transitions that does not involve tumbrels and a new Reign of Terror is probably a GMI. Too bad that the elites won't see this.
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

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Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


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On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


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#89 nuser

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 08:24 PM

You are like squabbling stones on a beach or like a racing
bicycle on a boardwalk ,clap clap! America has been had
By stupid ignorant people and the right recognized that
and took advantage.

#90 Rich T Bikkies

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 04:15 AM

View Postnuser, on 09 March 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

You are like squabbling stones on a beach or like a racing
bicycle on a boardwalk ,clap clap! America has been had
By stupid ignorant people and the right recognized that
and took advantage.

Your poetry is superb, but you don't punctuate it to display its merits. This time you've done an Isaiah, or William Blake. It should therefore be laid out like a Psalm in the Book of Common Prayer:

5: You are like squabbling stones on a beach: or like a racing
bicycle on a boardwalk; clap, clap!


6: America has been had by stupid ignorant people: and the right recognized that and took advantage.

All set up now for Anglican chanting, like in an English parish church.
Reality is a hallucination caused by alcohol deprivation.

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God is not dead. He was merely voted out of office.

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#91 LFC

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:37 PM

Putin just offed another critic. Trump must be insanely jealous. (OK, we don't KNOW that Putin did it and it could be a non-murderous death. I'm just jumping to the most likely cause of death to save time.)

Quote

Nikolai Glushkov, a Russian exile who was close friends with the late oligarch Boris Berezovsky, was found dead in his London home Monday night. His body was discovered by family and friends, and the cause of death is not yet clear. According to a statement from the Metropolitan Police, the department's Counter Terrorism Unit is “leading the investigation as a precaution because of associations that the man is believed to have had.” So far, there is “no evidence to suggest a link” to the attack on fellow Russian Sergei Skripal in Salisbury, authorities said. Glushkov, 68, was granted political asylum in the U.K. after working for Russian state airline Aeroflot and Berezovsky’s car company. While living in Russia, he was sentenced to five years in jail for money laundering and fraud in 1999, as Berezovsky fell out with Vladimir Putin and fled to the U.K.

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#92 Traveler

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 07:58 AM

This could start a new thread, but putting it here for now. Welcome to the new cold war. I have no idea why Putin would bring this upon himself.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
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#93 LFC

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 08:07 AM

View PostTraveler, on 14 March 2018 - 07:58 AM, said:

This could start a new thread, but putting it here for now. Welcome to the new cold war. I have no idea why Putin would bring this upon himself.

He's losing it as he gets older. So is Trump. It's a bit disheartening to realize that of the 3 largest super powers the leader of China is the most stable.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#94 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 08:27 AM

View PostTraveler, on 14 March 2018 - 07:58 AM, said:

Welcome to the new cold war. I have no idea why Putin would bring this upon himself.

I don't see the problem. Who's going to challenge us?
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
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These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
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#95 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 09:31 AM

View PostLFC, on 14 March 2018 - 08:07 AM, said:

He's losing it as he gets older. So is Trump. It's a bit disheartening to realize that of the 3 largest super powers the leader of China is the most stable.

Tough call. "Stable" is only good if it's not "consistently hostile."
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#96 LFC

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 03:38 PM

Trump has imposed a few sanctions on Russia. Do I detect a whiff of desperation?

Quote

The Trump administration on Thursday imposed sanctions on 19 Russians for alleged interference in the 2016 U.S. presidential election, including 13 indicted by special counsel Robert Mueller as part of his Russia-related investigation.

Also targeted were five Russian companies, including the Internet Research Agency, which is accused of orchestrating a mass online disinformation campaign to affect the election that Republican Donald Trump won over Democrat Hillary Clinton.

The Treasury Department announced the sanctions amid withering criticism of Trump and his administration for failing to use the congressionally mandated authority to punish Russia for the election interference. Trump himself has been skeptical of the allegations.

The sanctions are the first use of the powers that Congress passed last year in retaliation for Moscow’s meddling. The targets include officials working for the Russian military intelligence agency, GRU. Thursday’s action freezes any assets the individuals and entities may have in the United States and bar Americans from doing business with them.

The department said in a statement that the GRU and Russia’s military interfered in the 2016 election and were “directly responsible” for the NotPetya cyberattack that hit businesses across Europe in June 2017.

“The administration is confronting and countering malign Russian cyber activity, including their attempted interference in U.S. elections, destructive cyberattacks, and intrusions targeting critical infrastructure,” said Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin. “These targeted sanctions are a part of a broader effort to address the ongoing nefarious attacks emanating from Russia.”

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#97 golden_valley

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 04:02 PM

View PostLFC, on 15 March 2018 - 03:38 PM, said:

Trump has imposed a few sanctions on Russia. Do I detect a whiff of desperation?

Perhaps trying to show how "not collusive" he is with Russia.

#98 Rich T Bikkies

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 04:21 PM

View Postgolden_valley, on 15 March 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

Perhaps trying to show how "not collusive" he is with Russia.

Show? To what audience? Or is he just thrashing about?
Reality is a hallucination caused by alcohol deprivation.

Only Satan can rebuke sin. The righteous don't know enough.

God is not dead. He was merely voted out of office.

You can do anything with anybody if you just save them the trouble of thinking.

#99 golden_valley

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 04:35 PM

View PostRich T Bikkies, on 15 March 2018 - 04:21 PM, said:

Show? To what audience? Or is he just thrashing about?

The audience in his head and the rest of us because he thinks he can fool everyone.

#100 LFC

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 10:12 AM

Russia responds to the new sanctions ... rather weakly. Other than expanded use of their military (in Syria, in Ukraine, against the Kurds) I can't think of any leverage they really have to wield. They can't afford to shut off the oil spigots and they don't seem to really have a lot else to offer the Western World.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer





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