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#2781 golden_valley

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 12:39 PM

The assumption that Clinton would win screwed us big time. But I'm not sure that Obama and the 17 agencies making a bigger noise about what they were seeing would have changed the result.

ETA: especially after Comey reopened the investigation into emails 10 days before the election.

#2782 golden_valley

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 04:13 PM

From Lawfare: What if the obstruction was the collusion?

#2783 baw1064

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 05:50 PM

From the article G_V links:

Quote

But if the predicate for the investigation was rooted in substantial part in counterintelligence authorities—that is, if the theory was not just that the president may have violated the criminal law but also that he acted in a fashion that may constitute a threat to national security—that particular legal puzzle goes away. After all, the FBI doesn’t need a possible criminal violation to open a national security investigation.

This possibility, of course, raises a different legal puzzle, which is whether and under what circumstances the president can be a national security investigative subject of his own FBI given that it is ultimately he who defines national security threats for the executive branch. But that’s a question for another day.

In answer to the question raised in the second paragraph, it seems that this is exactly why impeachment was put into the Constitution.
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#2784 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 06:28 PM

He can dictate what's a national security issue now, but can he post hoc change the definition at a time before his inauguration?
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#2785 baw1064

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 07:00 PM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 12 January 2019 - 06:28 PM, said:

He can dictate what's a national security issue now, but can he post hoc change the definition at a time before his inauguration?

As long as he can get 20 Republican Senators to vote against his removal from office for doing so.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#2786 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 07:45 PM

View Postbaw1064, on 12 January 2019 - 07:00 PM, said:

As long as he can get 20 Republican Senators to vote against his removal from office for doing so.

Might not help with an Espionage Act charge later.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#2787 baw1064

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 08:07 PM

True. The Constitution does explicitly prohibit ex post facto criminal laws, which should cut both ways.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#2788 baw1064

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 08:22 PM

And on another front, Trump apparently went to great lengths to suppress any records of his conversations with Putin on several occasions.

Legally, can a translator be compelled to testify about such a conversation? It almost certainly wouldn't happen while Trump is still President, but afterwards?
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#2789 indy

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 08:47 PM

I think I recall reading that a claim of executive privilege by a former president is essentially an untested legal question.

#2790 baw1064

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 09:26 PM

View Postindy, on 12 January 2019 - 08:47 PM, said:

I think I recall reading that a claim of executive privilege by a former president is essentially an untested legal question.

There's also the question of whether such a conversation constitutes an official act if he didn't allow any record of it anywhere.
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#2791 baw1064

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 10:19 PM

OK, I'll just state the following for all of you. Up until now, I was opposed to impeachment, but the latest stuff in this thread has changed my mind. I pretty much endorse anything and everything to oppose Trump, regardless of collateral damage.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#2792 George Rowell

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 10:33 PM

View Postbaw1064, on 12 January 2019 - 10:19 PM, said:

OK, I'll just state the following for all of you. Up until now, I was opposed to impeachment, but the latest stuff in this thread has changed my mind. I pretty much endorse anything and everything to oppose Trump, regardless of collateral damage.
I understand the sentiment . Now we need to ask who will take over the fight to get China to obey the rules. We cannot pussy foot around because it is so vital to American interests and indeed the rest of the World for decades to come. Trump is the perfect fall-guy, he is half mad, racist, and and and. The window is now, procrastination is not an option.. Trump alone has made it conceivable to hit China hard, meet them head-on. Nobody else has. Every other president has derelicted their duty.

It has now become acceptable to take serious action against China. AFT. That is what trump has achieved. Let him do this thing then lock the douche bag up.

AFT? (About F------ T------)
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#2793 AnBr

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 10:52 PM

That is a pretty one dimensional view. There is far more at stake and even if you are that concerned I doubt that there could be any positive outcome to having tRump deal with China.
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#2794 George Rowell

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 10:59 PM

View PostAnBr, on 12 January 2019 - 10:52 PM, said:

That is a pretty one dimensional view. There is far more at stake and even if you are that concerned I doubt that there could be any positive outcome to having tRump deal with China.
It is totally one-dimensional, but it is the most important thing in American politics today in my view.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#2795 George Rowell

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 11:04 PM

I do not live in the US but whole World knows Trump is a scumbag. I believe we are looking at American prosperity for decades to come. Do the integration and it will come to trillions. China certainly takes the long view and puts up with present discomforts. I am suggesting the American people do the same until Trump is gone.

Or find somebody else with the BALLS to take over. And do it damn quick.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#2796 baw1064

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 11:36 PM

I don't see it as a necessary condition for a president to stand up to China, that he be in a criminal conspiracy with Putin and his oligarch posse. The thing about Trump is, all the Chinese have to do is to make him a better offer, and he will totally be at their beck and call.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#2797 George Rowell

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 12:04 AM

View Postbaw1064, on 12 January 2019 - 11:36 PM, said:

I don't see it as a necessary condition for a president to stand up to China, that he be in a criminal conspiracy with Putin and his oligarch posse. The thing about Trump is, all the Chinese have to do is to make him a better offer, and he will totally be at their beck and call.
You are right, I agree it is not a condition. As a member of the human race Trump offends me too. Believe me. But he has made it acceptable to face off with China, hurt them and at last go after American long-term interests.

As I said earlier, find someone with the BALLS to find China accountable. This time elect a homo sapien.

I am not praising Trump but I will add that he has kept to several of his election promises. Bush lied in his election manifesto. I remember the case was put before SCOTUS and they ruled that everything said in an election campaign was simply 'free speech'. Presidents are under no obligation to do what they are elected for. You may not like the wall, or Trump's oppressive and inhuman immigration policies but that is part of what he was elected for.

Yes, people may look back in anger but he is exactly as vile as he said he would be. That is a sort of honesty too.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#2798 AnBr

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 06:27 AM

Trump has concealed details of his face-to-face encounters with Putin from senior officials in administration
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#2799 indy

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 07:15 AM

I'd prefer to know the person standing up to China on behalf of US interests wasn't Putin's personal handmaiden. Oh, and that they had a brain developed enough to understand the various trade-offs involved. Trump is a scumbag (which, frankly, could work for you or against you) but he's also an idiot, which rarely works for you.

#2800 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 09:28 AM

View Postbaw1064, on 12 January 2019 - 10:19 PM, said:

OK, I'll just state the following for all of you. Up until now, I was opposed to impeachment, but the latest stuff in this thread has changed my mind. I pretty much endorse anything and everything to oppose Trump, regardless of collateral damage.

The "regardless of collateral damage" clause only applies if he is, in fact, removed from office -- right?
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO





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