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Do Red States and Blue States just need a divorce?


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#1 baw1064

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 10:59 PM

This topic is admittedly quite a bit over the top. Until the last few weeks, I never would have even taken this topic seriously.

But...

Well obviously the election didn't do the way that I, or my city, or my state, had hoped. But there's something more than just sour grapes here. It appears that the U.S. is at a toxic level of regionalism, similar to what existed in the decades before the Civil War. None of us were around then, and our interpretation of those events is colored by the role that slavery played in the regional differences. Today there aren't any moral issues quite as compelling, but it seems clear that different sections of the country just aren't on the same page on well, much of anything.

http://seattle.curbe...ada-s-southwest

The Civil War didn't just happen out of the blue. The North and South almost came to blows in 1830, then again in 1848. Both times, cooler heads prevailed and the crisis was averted, or rather, delayed.
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#2 Rich T Bikkies

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 03:32 AM

My gut reaction to the topic title: This time the North should secede from the South.
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#3 Progressive whisperer

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 09:40 AM

View PostRich T Bikkies, on 21 November 2016 - 03:32 AM, said:

My gut reaction to the topic title: This time the North should secede from the South.

Not that easy, the coasts would need to secede from the middle.

Among other problems, that leaves the middle with most of the ICBMs.

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#4 Traveler

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 09:47 AM

They can have them. The coasts have the subs. And plenty of air bases...
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#5 LFC

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 09:48 AM

View PostProgressive whisperer, on 21 November 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

Not that easy, the coasts would need to secede from the middle.

Among other problems, that leaves the middle with most of the ICBMs.

Well the "IC" in that stands for inter-continental so I don't see it as a problem. Unless, of course, they touch off a war with Europe because they have as much grasp of the concept of "inter-continental" as they do of "global" when it comes to climate change.

The problem I see is that we'll have two wealthy, productive regions bracketing a region that is effectively Kansas / Louisiana / Wisconsin writ large. Their economies will tank and because school funding seems to be the first to go, the interior (let's call it Murica) will be filled with uneducated people who are unprepared to take anything other than the lowest of jobs. The resulting desperation will result in the wealthy coasts having to build YUUUGGGEE walls to keep out all of the refugees. And we won't get their best, either. We'll get their criminals and rapists.
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#6 HockeyDon

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 11:01 AM

Maybe more than two nations when it comes right down to it.

Anyone remember this?
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#7 baw1064

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 07:48 PM

Megan McArdle had the same idea yesterday.

Can This Political Union be Saved?

The comments inadvertently reinforce the point...
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#8 baw1064

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 08:01 PM

View PostHockeyDon, on 21 November 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

Maybe more than two nations when it comes right down to it.

Anyone remember this?

True, but as the article notes the four regions which comprise the strongly blue areas of the country (Yankeedom, New Amsterdam, Left Coast, and El Norte) tend to strongly ally with each other, in spite of the differences between them.

One thing I have noticed over the past 30-40 years is there tends to be much less of a divide between Northern and Southern California now. It tends now to be more of an East/West divide almost akin to the Pacific Northwest (although in California the western portion has almost all the population).
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#9 indy

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 09:29 AM

Well, ultimately I don't think the problems that plague us are orientated along geographic lines. Basically, if you divide America into 2 or 4 or whatever, you'll just have that many more problems. To me, our problems are really of a more universal cultural variety (i.e., what we value and why) rather than regional ones.

#10 AnBr

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 12:53 PM

View Postindy, on 01 January 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

Well, ultimately I don't think the problems that plague us are orientated along geographic lines. Basically, if you divide America into 2 or 4 or whatever, you'll just have that many more problems. To me, our problems are really of a more universal cultural variety (i.e., what we value and why) rather than regional ones.

And this is becoming evident around the world where the radical right is rearing its ugly head.
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#11 baw1064

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 07:40 PM

But see the thread that AnBr just posted on Michael Barone's "hit piece" on California. Clearly many people on the right believe there's a geographical aspect, and have for years, else they wouldn't keep attacking the West Coast.

It's evident that a substantial fraction of the US population is unwilling to live in a country that resembles CA/WA/NY/MA/etc. We can 1) tell them to go to hell (and deliberately screw them the next time we get a chance), 2) wait for them to die, or 3) oblige them by self-deporting the parts of the country they don't like.
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#12 Sinan

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 07:16 PM

Since November I have been told repeatedly by Trump voters that California is a hell hole, we are not deserving of equal status, should not drive the nation, are communists, socialists, heathens and so on and so on. In essence, a large part of his supporters cannot stand what California is or represents. The hatred is real, I saw it in Texas all the time. At first I thought it was just a jest but now I am not so sure. For some reason, many Americans cannot stand California. Why they would dislike some of the greatest real estate on the planet with some of the most creative and wonderful people in the nation is beyond me. But they do hate us, yes they do. And from my experience, hate is hard to overcome. I would prefer us leaving the union and perhaps join with Oregon and Washington to form a new country. Sure, we could have another crack at a Civil War but I doubt if anyone really has the stomach for it.
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#13 golden_valley

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 07:54 PM

For most of CA history the state was desired and aspired to. I suspect that somewhere in the late '60's and early 70's when protests against the Vietnam War and the hippies of the Summer of Love got lots of press public opinion about CA became negative. Land of fruits and nuts, Gov. Moonbeam, environmentalism, rampant homosexuality and AIDS, hippies, drug use, strange cults....became the view of CA. Now it's a hell hole.

#14 Rabiner

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 08:13 PM

Personally I'm okay with them thinking CA is a hell hole. Keeps me from having to live near them.
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#15 baw1064

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 08:45 PM

Posted Image

Hell Hole Reservoir (Middle Fork of the American River), CA

Look! It even has water in it!!!
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#16 JackD

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 08:54 PM

Sign near Oregon border: Californians welcome; please don't stop.

#17 Bact PhD

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 09:50 PM

View PostJackD, on 03 January 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

Sign near Oregon border: Californians welcome; please don't stop.
Reminds me of the apocryphal FL welcome sign to greet the New Yorkers (et al.) heading south:

Welcome to Florida
NOW GO HOME
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#18 Bact PhD

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 09:52 PM

View Postgolden_valley, on 03 January 2017 - 07:54 PM, said:

For most of CA history the state was desired and aspired to. I suspect that somewhere in the late '60's and early 70's when protests against the Vietnam War and the hippies of the Summer of Love got lots of press public opinion about CA became negative. Land of fruits and nuts, Gov. Moonbeam, environmentalism, rampant homosexuality and AIDS, hippies, drug use, strange cults....became the view of CA. Now it's a hell hole.
Don't forget all those (presumably all illegal) brown-skinned immigrants that don't speak any English.
Politics these days is show business. Elections are Dancing with the Stars with consequences. ~Rue Bella

(About fame) Living for likes, shares and follows is a form of validation. The question is whether it is also the source of our self esteem. If it is, we’re screwed. And, culturally, it seems as if it’s become more and more our shared value. ... Meringue is no longer a sweet and pretty topping but the body itself. ~Charles Perez

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816. ME 14:384, via LFC, 12/1/2016

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#19 Progressive whisperer

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 08:45 AM

View Postgolden_valley, on 03 January 2017 - 07:54 PM, said:

For most of CA history the state was desired and aspired to. I suspect that somewhere in the late '60's and early 70's when protests against the Vietnam War and the hippies of the Summer of Love got lots of press public opinion about CA became negative. Land of fruits and nuts, Gov. Moonbeam, environmentalism, rampant homosexuality and AIDS, hippies, drug use, strange cults....became the view of CA. Now it's a hell hole.

It isn't new, it's been nurtured for a generation or more. Even under republican government, California had some of the strictest environmental laws and we know modern "conservatives" hate those. Started with hippies and Hollywood, plus envy...


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#20 LFC

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 09:51 AM

View PostJackD, on 03 January 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

Sign near Oregon border: Californians welcome; please don't stop.

Reminds me a bit of the definition of a Yankee vs. a Damn Yankee. A Yankee comes from the north to visit. A Damn Yankee stays.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

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