Jump to content


So what about this Brexit thing?


568 replies to this topic

#541 AnBr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 12969 posts

Posted 15 May 2019 - 09:34 AM

Posted Image
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#542 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 27887 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 15 May 2019 - 10:03 AM

Probably unfair but who gives a crap.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#543 Rich T Bikkies

    Trainee Basil Fawlty. Practising Victor Meldrew

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4122 posts
  • LocationBirmingham, UK

Posted 15 May 2019 - 04:03 PM

Posted Image
Reality is a hallucination caused by alcohol deprivation.

Only Satan can rebuke sin. The righteous don't know enough.

God is not dead. He was merely voted out of office.

You can do anything with anybody if you just save them the trouble of thinking.

#544 Rich T Bikkies

    Trainee Basil Fawlty. Practising Victor Meldrew

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4122 posts
  • LocationBirmingham, UK

Posted 24 May 2019 - 05:15 AM

She's gone. Now working out her notice period until 7th June, two weeks today. And it looks like we're getting Boris as her successor by the summer. Explanation: first all card-carrying Conservative Party members vote on the list of nominees; then the winner and runner-up are presented to the caucus of Conservative MPs who vote to pick the outright winner.

Boris will top the poll of all members by miles. However, more and more Tory MPs are going to support Boris, even the members (until quite recently) of the any-one-but-Boris tendency, because they're scared shitless of losing their seats at the general election, or of getting deselected as candidates by their mad swivel-eyed loon local members. (Does this remind you of anything, my beloved American friends?) So Boris now looks odds-on to succeed the Maybot — the LINO — as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (as it is nostalgically called at the moment).

For the first time since I started attending Quaker Meeting in November 2010, I am actually quaking.
Reality is a hallucination caused by alcohol deprivation.

Only Satan can rebuke sin. The righteous don't know enough.

God is not dead. He was merely voted out of office.

You can do anything with anybody if you just save them the trouble of thinking.

#545 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 27887 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 24 May 2019 - 08:41 AM

View PostRich T Bikkies, on 24 May 2019 - 05:15 AM, said:

Boris will top the poll of all members by miles. However, more and more Tory MPs are going to support Boris, even the members (until quite recently) of the any-one-but-Boris tendency, because they're scared shitless of losing their seats at the general election, or of getting deselected as candidates by their mad swivel-eyed loon local members. (Does this remind you of anything, my beloved American friends?) So Boris now looks odds-on to succeed the Maybot — the LINO — as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (as it is nostalgically called at the moment).

So Britain may get a Tory Trump? My question is if he'll really want it at this point. I suspect he was hoping that Brexit would go through under May, o matter how horribly, and he could ride in on his white horse to save the day. If he becomes PM he owns the outcome no matter how much he whines about the deal that May cut.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#546 Rich T Bikkies

    Trainee Basil Fawlty. Practising Victor Meldrew

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4122 posts
  • LocationBirmingham, UK

Posted 24 May 2019 - 09:19 AM

View PostLFC, on 24 May 2019 - 08:41 AM, said:

So Britain may get a Tory Trump? My question is if he'll really want it at this point. I suspect he was hoping that Brexit would go through under May, no matter how horribly, and he could ride in on his white horse to save the day. If he becomes PM he owns the outcome no matter how much he whines about the deal that May cut.

That is an excellent point, and perhaps the UK's last hope. But even if he does do a bunk, the other candidates don't inspire. Michael Gove and Penny Mordaunt are the closest approximation to human beings and competent Secretaries of State available IMO (which means not close at all), but every possible candidate has one fatal defect.

They have to deliver Brexit. And the only Brexits available for delivery range from disastrous to catastrophic.
Reality is a hallucination caused by alcohol deprivation.

Only Satan can rebuke sin. The righteous don't know enough.

God is not dead. He was merely voted out of office.

You can do anything with anybody if you just save them the trouble of thinking.

#547 AnBr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 12969 posts

Posted 24 May 2019 - 10:40 AM

Boris Johnson could be prosecuted for misconduct in public office over lies Britain gives £350m to the EU per week

Quote

BREAKING: Boris Johnson could be prosecuted for misconduct in public office over his claims Britain gives £350m to the EU per week.

A district judge today reserved judgement over whether the private prosecution against the former foreign secretary would go ahead.

Brexiteers used the slogan ‘We send the EU £350 million a week – let’s fund our NHS instead” in the run-up to the 2016 referendum.

Johnson was rapped by a national statistics watchdog over the claim and appeared in hustings with the slogan in the background.

Today District Judge Margot Coleman reserved judgement over whether the former foreign secretary could be prosecuted under the public misconduct charge.

Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#548 Rich T Bikkies

    Trainee Basil Fawlty. Practising Victor Meldrew

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4122 posts
  • LocationBirmingham, UK

Posted 24 May 2019 - 10:46 AM

View PostAnBr, on 24 May 2019 - 10:40 AM, said:


Yes. And ten years ago the mere possiblity would have killed his career.

Whereas . . . these days . . .
Reality is a hallucination caused by alcohol deprivation.

Only Satan can rebuke sin. The righteous don't know enough.

God is not dead. He was merely voted out of office.

You can do anything with anybody if you just save them the trouble of thinking.

#549 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 27887 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 24 May 2019 - 11:53 AM

View PostRich T Bikkies, on 24 May 2019 - 10:46 AM, said:

Yes. And ten years ago the mere possiblity would have killed his career.

Whereas . . . these days . . .

Sounds eerily familiar. I guess the days when we could grab politicians by the morals are over.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#550 D. C. Sessions

    I don't have to pretend to be an adult any more

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9430 posts
  • LocationCentral New Mexico

Posted 24 May 2019 - 02:49 PM

View PostRich T Bikkies, on 24 May 2019 - 09:19 AM, said:

They have to deliver Brexit. And the only Brexits available for delivery range from disastrous to catastrophic.

And what if they can't get a Brexit through Parliament? Any chance of someone sane either pulling the plug (doubtful) or doing a face-saving re-plebiscite after all?
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#551 Rich T Bikkies

    Trainee Basil Fawlty. Practising Victor Meldrew

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4122 posts
  • LocationBirmingham, UK

Posted 24 May 2019 - 02:59 PM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 24 May 2019 - 02:49 PM, said:

And what if they can't get a Brexit through Parliament? Any chance of someone sane either pulling the plug (doubtful) or doing a face-saving re-plebiscite after all?

Brexit with a negotiated deal looks like a dead duck, whoever becomes Prime Minister. To stay in, Article 50 must be revoked explicitly by the UK Government. If we sit and do nothing we exit with no deal on 29th October. If the political class rush around like headless chickens from now until 29th October, we also exit with no deal.

My ideal solution would be for rising levels of panic to lead to sanity breaking in and revoking Article 50. But panic doesn't work like that.
Reality is a hallucination caused by alcohol deprivation.

Only Satan can rebuke sin. The righteous don't know enough.

God is not dead. He was merely voted out of office.

You can do anything with anybody if you just save them the trouble of thinking.

#552 AnBr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 12969 posts

Posted 25 May 2019 - 03:49 PM

View PostRich T Bikkies, on 24 May 2019 - 10:46 AM, said:

Yes. And ten years ago the mere possiblity would have killed his career.

Whereas . . . these days . . .

The same forces there as we have here. Between Russia's manipulations and Murdoch's propaganda empire willing to do Putin's bidding. The entire West needs to take action to not allow it to happen to them as well.
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#553 D. C. Sessions

    I don't have to pretend to be an adult any more

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9430 posts
  • LocationCentral New Mexico

Posted 25 May 2019 - 05:28 PM

View PostRich T Bikkies, on 24 May 2019 - 02:59 PM, said:

My ideal solution would be for rising levels of panic to lead to sanity breaking in and revoking Article 50. But panic doesn't work like that.

Yup. So, as the saying goes, "assume the position."
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#554 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 27887 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 28 May 2019 - 03:11 PM

Josh Marshall adds some focus to the elections in Britain and the potential shifting of the Brexit terrain.

Quote

For those of you who’ve been trying to make sense of the EU elections and especially the EU elections in the UK, I wanted to add a few thoughts. First, the results are a bit muddled and contradictory. But they’re also mired in a fair amount of misunderstandings and misleading spin and gloss. Rightwing parties did do well in a lot of EU countries. But in most they either underperformed expectations or fell from previous highs in the 2014 EU election. The big story overall is the decline or in some cases near collapse of the traditional parties of government – center-right and center-left – in lots of countries, particularly heartland EU countries like Germany, France, the UK, et al.

Let’s focus in on the UK.

The wild, eye-popping result is that the “Brexit Party”, founded only months ago and now led by rightist provocateur Nigel Farage, got the most votes almost everywhere in England outside of London and the most seats overall – 29 seats and 31.6% of the vote, far more than the Tories and Labour combined.

But the picture looks very different if you step back a bit. There were five parties running as Remain parties – i.e., pro-EU, anti-Brexit. If you add up the Remain parties they got just over 40% of the vote compared to just under 35% for the hard Brexit parties (Farage’s new party and UKIP, his old party). The remaining 23% or so went to the Labour (14.1%) and Tories (9.1%), both of which are divided on Brexit, though Labour leans more Remain and the Tories more Leave. (The big party winners on the Remain side were the Liberal Democrats and the the Greens.)

One very reasonable way to look at these numbers is that the election was about Brexit and neither of the two traditional parties of government took a clear stand on the issue. Both saw their support fall precipitously. Parties with clear Remain or Leave positions took the overwhelming majority of the votes (about 75%) and a clear majority of those went to Remain parties.

An analogue to Trumpism is that Brexit support seems to be clearly a minority position in the UK (albeit a very large minority). Supporters of “no-deal Brexit” are definitely a minority. Yet they make up a large enough percentage of the electorate and are unified and coherent enough that they can drive the political agenda, even if they can’t necessarily carry their core policy to fruition.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#555 Rich T Bikkies

    Trainee Basil Fawlty. Practising Victor Meldrew

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4122 posts
  • LocationBirmingham, UK

Posted 29 May 2019 - 01:15 AM

A very clear and helpful summary by Josh Marshall. I have no quarrel with any of it.
Reality is a hallucination caused by alcohol deprivation.

Only Satan can rebuke sin. The righteous don't know enough.

God is not dead. He was merely voted out of office.

You can do anything with anybody if you just save them the trouble of thinking.

#556 AnBr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 12969 posts

Posted 29 May 2019 - 09:25 AM

Boris Johnson must go on trial for 'lying and misleading' in Brexit campaign, judge orders
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#557 J-CA

    Probably in one of my drunken stupors..

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4679 posts

Posted 29 May 2019 - 09:32 AM

Corbyn has announced the he wants a referendum on the Brexit deal (or an election):
https://www.theguard...er-voter-exodus
I am the burrito until someone hands me to a philosopher.

#558 Rich T Bikkies

    Trainee Basil Fawlty. Practising Victor Meldrew

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4122 posts
  • LocationBirmingham, UK

Posted 30 May 2019 - 05:13 AM

Yep. Labour and the Tories are panicking. I'll drink to that. However, I haven't the faintest idea whether it is (i) good news, (ii) bad news, or (iii) neither of the foregoing.

I find that most of the time during this . . . saga? . . . I've found it too crazy, confused and cluttered to comment on. Hence my lack of commentary (sorry, chaps!). I'll just say there are only two alternatives left: Leave with no deal, or Revoke article 50 and remain. Also that No Deal is more likely at this stage, but it could be just decided at random if 29th October comes and the politics is so shambolic at that moment that nobody is in control of the decision. Also that if we do nothing then the default is no deal. So a maliciously stupid Tory Prime Minister could deliberately just let the clock run out.

But what the hell, eh? What the hell?
Reality is a hallucination caused by alcohol deprivation.

Only Satan can rebuke sin. The righteous don't know enough.

God is not dead. He was merely voted out of office.

You can do anything with anybody if you just save them the trouble of thinking.

#559 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 27887 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 31 May 2019 - 11:11 AM

Brexit continues to be the polarizing issue in the U.K. with the traditional long-standing parties, neither of which had a firm, unified stance on Brexit, taking massive hits in the polls.

Quote

Two parties have dominated British politics since the end of the First World War. The Labour Party, currently led by veteran left-winger Jeremy Corbyn, and the ruling Conservative Party, which—for the next few weeks, at least—is led by disastrous outgoing Prime Minister Theresa May.

Imagine the shock over morning cups of tea, then, caused by an earth-shattering poll published Friday that showed those two parties lodged in third and fourth place. That is to say, if the poll is correct, a British general election would leave neither the Conservatives nor Labour anywhere near forming the next government.

So, what the Hell is going on? In a word: Brexit. The ongoing catastrophe that is paralyzing Britain’s political class has changed how voters think and feel about politics and there appears to be no going back. In second place in the poll was Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party, which, last week, was by far the most supported group in the EU parliamentary elections.

At the top of the poll was a party equally evangelic about its Brexit position—but on the opposite side of the debate. The Liberal Democrats, which ran the European election campaign with the frank and very British slogan “Bollocks to Brexit,” could win an election if it was held today.



Quote

Our latest Westminster voting intention has the Lib Dems in first place and the Brexit Party second place, with Labour and the Tories pushed into third:

Lib Dem - 24%
Brexit Party - 22%
Con - 19%
Labour - 19%
Green - 8%
UKIP - 1%
Change UK - 1%


" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#560 Rich T Bikkies

    Trainee Basil Fawlty. Practising Victor Meldrew

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4122 posts
  • LocationBirmingham, UK

Posted 01 June 2019 - 12:12 AM

Posted Image
Reality is a hallucination caused by alcohol deprivation.

Only Satan can rebuke sin. The righteous don't know enough.

God is not dead. He was merely voted out of office.

You can do anything with anybody if you just save them the trouble of thinking.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users