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Minimum Wage Thread


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#921 Traveler

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 03:43 PM

Andy, I found the argument quite compelling that most all of the non employer-dependent benefit programs represent competition for wages, and thus raise them. This is why I sought an explanation of why that is wrong. I suppose we could take it to extremes, and recognize that we cannot let folks founder with no support at all, and thus lower competition for wages even more. So we put in the benefit programs to make sure folks didn't starve to death. And in so doing, we set the wage floor.

How could employers somehow band together to suppress wages (not talking about non competes)? The issue with inflating their own wages has a LOT to do with how we treat unearned income. It biases folks to promote shareholder gains, often very short-sightedly. A LOT of these problems can be attributed to POG tax policy. That is where folks should focus.
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#922 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 03:54 PM

View PostTraveler, on 12 June 2019 - 01:12 PM, said:

Calling it bull does not advance the discussion. I was looking for a coherent argument why that article is wrong.

It's the classic right-wing argument I heard yesterday while getting my car's AC fixed.

Thesis: if it weren't for welfare (etc.) people would be lining up to take his sub-minimum wage agricultural work because it's that or starve. Since they have alternatives to starvation (even if it means hot-bunking eight to a room and eating at soup kitchens) they're just slacking for that sweet, sweet free money.

If you're a junior enlisted member of the US armed forces, there's a very good chance your family is getting by with the help of food stamps and some other not-on-the-DOD-budget support. Absent that support, you would have little choice but to take some other work. That support really should be billed to the DoD. The same goes for WalMart: they can get someone to take their crap jobs because they can do so and not starve immediately and might even get halfway decent healthcare.

Because the competition is not "no work and layabout watching TV," it's "work for Costco" or "work for Trader Joe's" or any of a score of companies that actually pay a living wage, provide good health benefits, etc. WalMart is not anyone's first choice, but the government support for the low wages lets them be in the competition compared to employers that are farther away with poor public transit, or that require relocation, or that insist on continuing training, or ...
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
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"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#923 AnBr

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 09:32 AM

How To Fix Stagnant Wages: Dump The World's Dumbest Idea
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The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


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On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


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Second inaugural address January, 1937

#924 Traveler

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 11:08 AM

Great link. A simple solution. Tax unearned income the same as earned. Solves a LOT of issues.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#925 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 11:58 AM

View PostTraveler, on 08 July 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:

Great link. A simple solution. Tax unearned income the same as earned. Solves a LOT of issues.

And, strangely enough, something that we have Reagan on record as favoring.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#926 LFC

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 12:22 PM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 08 July 2019 - 11:58 AM, said:

And, strangely enough, something that we have Reagan on record as favoring.

St. Ronnie? Say it ain't so!
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#927 pnwguy

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Posted 08 July 2019 - 12:31 PM

View PostLFC, on 08 July 2019 - 12:22 PM, said:

St. Ronnie? Say it ain't so!
The Pope of Pennsylvania Avenue needs to revoke his sainthood. He wanted Amnesty.

"'Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall' -- see he wanted open borders and to allow those socialists to invade good (i.e. white Christian) countries. Think of how many East German rapists he let in!"
"All glory to the HypnoTrump, or else..."

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#928 George Rowell

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 01:51 AM

The Independent headline is "Ethnicity pay gap: lowest-earning groups paid a fifth less than white British workers"

Looks like things are biased against non-white workers, but read on and you find that white workers are at a large pay disadvantage of up to 15-30% against ethnic Indians and Chinese. Looks like an example how to spin a headline to confirm non-white prejudice and fuel resentment.

I suggest a new headline. 'White Workers paid less than ethnic Indian and Chinese". FYI all are well above the minimum 8.21 pound/hr wage.

"https://www.independ...s-a8997556.html"
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#929 LFC

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 10:05 AM

 George Rowell, on 10 July 2019 - 01:51 AM, said:

Looks like an example how to spin a headline to confirm non-white prejudice and fuel resentment.

Rage sells, objective information doesn't. Rupert Murdoch built an empire on that fact.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#930 pnwguy

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Posted 16 July 2019 - 02:22 PM

View PostLFC, on 10 July 2019 - 10:05 AM, said:

Rage sells, objective information doesn't. Rupert Murdoch built an empire on that fact.
And Dumpster built a presidency on that fact. Well, Uncle Vladimir sure helped too...

I supposed "built" is inaccurate. Destroyed might be a better choice of words.

I'm extremely fond of the kind of candidate that Mayor Pete is. But I worry that he's too bright and logical for the mass of American voters that have mainlined a steady diet of Survivor, The Bachelor, and Family Feud. Idiocracy is upon us.
"All glory to the HypnoTrump, or else..."

"It all makes sense when you remind yourself that the GOP is no longer a political party but turned into an organized crime family"

"I hope to live long enough that the name Trump is reviled as much as the name Hitler or Stalin"

#931 golden_valley

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Posted 16 July 2019 - 02:37 PM

View Postpnwguy, on 16 July 2019 - 02:22 PM, said:


I'm extremely fond of the kind of candidate that Mayor Pete is. But I worry that he's too bright and logical for the mass of American voters that have mainlined a steady diet of Survivor, The Bachelor, and Family Feud. Idiocracy is upon us.

The same was said about Obama. I'm sure lots of people don't want some eggheaded liberal in office even if he is a veteran.

#932 LFC

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 12:13 PM

View Postgolden_valley, on 16 July 2019 - 02:37 PM, said:

The same was said about Obama. I'm sure lots of people don't want some eggheaded liberal in office...

Especially if it's a brown egg?
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#933 pnwguy

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 12:30 PM

View PostLFC, on 17 July 2019 - 12:13 PM, said:

Especially if it's a brown egg?
Like a "gay egg" is going to be accepted better?

Actually, that base will argue there is no such thing as a gay egg. It wasn't "laid that way". It's been taken over by Satan and needs conversion therapy
"All glory to the HypnoTrump, or else..."

"It all makes sense when you remind yourself that the GOP is no longer a political party but turned into an organized crime family"

"I hope to live long enough that the name Trump is reviled as much as the name Hitler or Stalin"

#934 LFC

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 02:17 PM

View Postpnwguy, on 17 July 2019 - 12:30 PM, said:

Like a "gay egg" is going to be accepted better?

Actually, that base will argue there is no such thing as a gay egg. It wasn't "laid that way". It's been taken over by Satan and needs conversion therapy

And we all know how "conversion therapy" works...

Posted Image
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#935 Traveler

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 07:37 AM

View PostTraveler, on 08 July 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:

Great link. A simple solution. Tax unearned income the same as earned. Solves a LOT of issues.
A little bit more about cap gains. That indexing thing would be great, so long as taxed as ordinary income.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#936 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 09:21 AM

View PostTraveler, on 28 July 2019 - 07:37 AM, said:

A little bit more about cap gains. That indexing thing would be great, so long as taxed as ordinary income.

Yeah -- the excuse for discounted rates for capital gains used to be inflation. The big problem with that is that it still taxes inflation, but gives a discount for short-term gains compared to long-term ones. Perverse incentive.

With late 20th century technology and data there's no excuse to have a fixed rate for gains, just index the basis. Thud -- back to St. Ronald's "income is income" simplification, with the stupidity of taxing inflation removed.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#937 baw1064

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 04:39 PM

To be sure, the interest on bank accounts, CDs, etc. should be treated the same way. Right now it's taxed as ordinary income with no inflation indexing, which essentially imposes a higher tax rate on people with enough assets to have a bank account but not a stock portfolio.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#938 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 06:15 PM

View Postbaw1064, on 28 July 2019 - 04:39 PM, said:

To be sure, the interest on bank accounts, CDs, etc. should be treated the same way. Right now it's taxed as ordinary income with no inflation indexing, which essentially imposes a higher tax rate on people with enough assets to have a bank account but not a stock portfolio.

The system is working as intended.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#939 AnBr

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 10:52 PM

A $1,000 per month cash handout would grow the economy by $2.5 trillion
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

— Carl Sagan


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#940 LFC

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 02:26 PM

More than ever where you start helps determine where you end up.

Quote

The American dream promises that anyone can make it if they work hard enough and play by the rules. Anyone can make it by pulling themselves up by their “bootstraps.”

Baloney.

The truth is: In America today, your life chances depend largely on how you started – where you grew up and how much your parents earned.

The American dream promises that anyone can make it if they work hard enough and play by the rules. Anyone can make it by pulling themselves up by their “bootstraps.”

Baloney.

The truth is: In America today, your life chances depend largely on how you started – where you grew up and how much your parents earned.

So as inequality of income and wealth has widened – especially along the lines of race and gender – American children born into poverty have less chance of making it. While 90% of children born in 1940 grew up to earn more than their parents, today only half of all American adults earn more than their parents did.

And children born to the top 10 percent of earners are typically on track to make three times more income as adults than the children of the bottom 10 percent.

The phrase “pulling yourself up by the bootstraps” itself is rubbish. Its origins date back to an 18th-century fairy tale, and the phrase was originally intended as a metaphor for an impossible feat of strength.

Other countries understand that the family you’re born into as well as the social safety nets and social springboards you have access to play large roles.

Children born poor in Canada, Denmark, or the United Kingdom – nations without America’s degree of inequality, nations which provide strong social safety nets and public investments – have a greater chance of economic success than children born poor in America.

Individuals in those countries are blamed less for their personal failures and credited less for personal successes.

So, why is America still perpetuating the fallacy of the self-made individual? Because those in power want you to believe it. If everyone thinks they’re on their own, it’s easier for the powerful to dismantle unions, unravel safety nets, and slash taxes for the wealthy.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer





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