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Minimum Wage Thread


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#741 J-CA

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 12:55 AM

View PostGeorge Powell, on 25 October 2018 - 07:07 AM, said:

But it is just what I expect at election time. His proposals sound completely impractical. Being totally cynical, I would say the DEMs should complain that the GOP is not doing enough about undocumented immigrants, in particular the wall should be high, much higher and longer too, much longer. Of course this has no relation to reality but it sways voters. Afterwards just forget it, I mean election promises are nothing more than free speech according to the supreme court. Bait and switch, bait and switch.
I find the proposal completely practical in that it is quite straightforward to implement, the government knows how to administer savings accounts!
My issue with it is that it will be ineffective!

I would remind you that on immigration the Democrats have long made a big show of being tough on illegal immigration, it hasn't paid off.

I think that it would be good, over the long haul, for the Democratic Party to be the party of earnestness and honestly trying to deliver on your promises and leave the GOP to be the party of lies and deception. I categorically reject calls for the Democrats to "fight dirty" where such fighting means spouting blatant falsehoods. When you do that you end up with the kind of democrats in the party like the IDC in New York state, and - excuse my french - fuck those guys.
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#742 HockeyDon

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 06:11 AM

View PostJ-CA, on 26 October 2018 - 12:55 AM, said:

I categorically reject calls for the Democrats to "fight dirty" where such fighting means spouting blatant falsehoods.

Gotta agree with this idea. Fighting dirty within certain bounds does not mean simply reverting back to the wishy-washy, weak-kneed responses the Dems have been known to do for some time. They can fight dirty by calling out the blatant falsehoods, general meanness and exposing the rot that seems inherent in every Republican lately. Doing these things without resorting to blatant falsehoods can be effective, if only more of them would do it more often and more forcefully.
Well, fuck.

How can I be expected to distinguish BS from reality when so much of my reality is utter BS?!

"There seems to be a lot of people dying of ignorance while living in the information age." my sister-in-law.

#743 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 07:59 AM

There is a difference between "hardball" and "dirty." I'll point you to the recent debate between Sinema and McSally, where McSally tried to dodge a question about healthcare by declaring that the people of Arizona didn't care about it and Sinema came back with (not a quote) basically "No, the people of Arizona care about healthcare more than almost anything, and that's why YOU want to talk about anything but."
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
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These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
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#744 LFC

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 10:26 AM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 26 October 2018 - 07:59 AM, said:

There is a difference between "hardball" and "dirty." I'll point you to the recent debate between Sinema and McSally, where McSally tried to dodge a question about healthcare by declaring that the people of Arizona didn't care about it and Sinema came back with (not a quote) basically "No, the people of Arizona care about healthcare more than almost anything, and that's why YOU want to talk about anything but."

Or as Andrew Gillum said about Ron DeSantis in Florida:

Quote

Now, I’m not calling Mr. Desantis a racist. I’m simply saying the racists believe he’s a racist.

Completely true, completely fair, and definitely hardball.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#745 HockeyDon

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 11:41 AM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 26 October 2018 - 07:59 AM, said:

There is a difference between "hardball" and "dirty."

That's a good distinction.
Well, fuck.

How can I be expected to distinguish BS from reality when so much of my reality is utter BS?!

"There seems to be a lot of people dying of ignorance while living in the information age." my sister-in-law.

#746 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 01:25 PM

View PostHockeyDon, on 26 October 2018 - 11:41 AM, said:

That's a good distinction.

As long as we're sorta-kinda using sports analogies, let's remember that recently the referees have been turning a blind eye to a lot of violations, too.

We could go on for a while but I'm thinking in particular of the news puppies who let their subjects dodge questions without followup.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#747 AnBr

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 02:10 PM

I have been saying for some time now that it is time for the Dems to fight fire with fire, but the difference is that the Dems will not have to lie to do it. Hardball might well describe what I have been talking about.
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#748 LFC

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 01:12 PM

Americans Are More Vulnerable Than Ever, And The Gig Economy Isn’t Helping

It's a bit long but very interesting. Here are a few snippets.

Quote

She remembers reading about Mechanical Turk, Amazon’s crowd-working platform, soon after it launched in 2005. “It seemed so different and so new,” she said. It wasn’t just freelancing, it was e-lancing. Workers could take on small projects, some lasting just minutes, whenever they wanted, and they could work from home. It appealed to Milland, who’d already realized she liked being her own boss. She started working part-time on tasks for Mechanical Turk, along with her other projects.

But Milland soon learned that too many jobs on Mechanical Turk, which include tasks like audio transcriptions, keying in receipts, and training artificial intelligence programs to recognize human voices and movements, paid just pennies per hour. What’s more, if a requester rejects the work, a Turker won’t get paid for his or her time at all. A 2016 study from Janine Berg at the International Labour Organization found that the average U.S. Mechanical Turk worker earned just $5.50 an hour, and the median pay was $4.65 an hour.


Quote

During countless hours working Mechanical Turk gigs, Milland started to study the way the platform worked — to research why its workers did the work they did. She discovered that many Turkers, as they call themselves, shared a common motivation: They were working to try to pay off medical bills. Milland and her family lived in Canada, which meant that their healthcare was covered. “If I hadn’t had nationalized health care, to be honest, I’d probably be dead,” she said.

The realization prompted her to look toward organizing her fellow workers, and thinking about the grassroots changes that needed to happen in North American governments. She saw the economy she was working in, the gig economy, not as the problem, but just a symptom. “My experience with capitalism is that it’s very hard to get off that bottom rung,” she said. “The gig economy is serving those bottom rungs… un- or underemployed, part-timers. A normal job doesn’t give them enough money. The economy is failing even people with a job.”


Quote

All of this means that being a permanent employee isn’t always that much better than being a temporary one. Five years ago, Antonio Ivy married a woman in Mississippi and moved from Pennsylvania to be with her. He was 35 then. Ivy had spent years working in factories: eight years as a warehouser in a factory that made stock paper for magazines and newspapers until it was bought out and he was laid off; four years in a factory where he made wall coverings for hotels, until it too was bought out. His jobs were well-paying and unionized.

In Mississippi, the best job he could find was in the Nissan plant in Canton, about half an hour north of Jackson. He had a brother who’d been hired on in the early days of the plant, which opened in 2003, as a permanent Nissan employee. Ivy’s brother made $24 an hour and had good health insurance. But Nissan only directly hired employees in the first few years of its operation. Since then, almost all of Nissan’s hires have been made through a temporary employment company, most often Kelly Services, and this was the path to employment Ivy had to take. The starting pay as a temp was only $12 an hour, which felt like minimum wage compared to his last jobs. Ivy wasn’t offered paid vacation, sick days, or health insurance.

“They said, ‘We’ll hire you on full-time shortly,’” he said. “It took over two years.”

Foreign automakers in the United States, who largely set up their factories across the anti-union states of the South rather than the Big Three stronghold and union-shop strong Midwest, have been relying on temporary workers almost from the beginning. By some estimates, almost half of temporary workers are in manufacturing or in industrial work settings. In 2015, temporary agencies provided an estimated 11.3 percent of manufacturing employment, compared to just 2.3 percent in 1989.


Quote

Increasingly, Republican-controlled state governments are requiring anyone relying on a government-funded safety-net program, like Medicaid, to work to even be able to access assistance. Some Republican proposals in Congress would require food stamp recipients to work, and the party is hinting at further cuts to remaining social-insurance programs, including Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security, after the midterm elections.

The gig economy, no matter its size, is a symptom of a larger problem: Workers aren’t making enough, and have nothing else to fall back on. It’s rise is both a sign that the social safety net has eroded, and that, if these types of employment arrangements remain popular, we’re going to need a stronger one. There have been some proposals in Congress to change the social safety net so that individuals’ benefits are more nimble and move with them, but, politically, it’s more likely that the programs people rely on will be cut, not improved.

Many of our safety-net programs were designed during an economic depression in which almost a quarter of Americans were looking for jobs and couldn’t find them. They were designed to be a bulwark against inevitable economic downturns. In this era, however, America doesn’t guarantee a decent standard of living to its citizens: it only guarantees the chance at a decent standard of living to its workers. And being a worker in America is an increasingly precarious position to be in. The gig economy itself may still be small, but even traditional work arrangements are becoming more and more gigified, part of an economy in which workers have low job security and receive low pay and few benefits, most of which they have to pay for themselves.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#749 AnBr

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 08:38 AM

Another not-like like. It is becoming harder to not hear the beginnings of the creaking of the wheels of the tumbrels.
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#750 AnBr

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Posted 31 October 2018 - 01:18 PM

View PostAnBr, on 24 October 2018 - 10:49 PM, said:


Another take: Economists reverse claims that $15 Seattle minimum wage hurt workers, admit it was largely beneficial

And from Bloomberg: What Minimum-Wage Foes Got Wrong About Seattle

Quote

The dire warnings about minimum-wage increases keep proving to be wrong. So much so that in a new paper, the authors behind an earlier study predicting a negative impact have all but recanted their initial conclusions. However, the authors still seem perplexed about why they went awry in the first place.

Bold mine. What clueless gits.
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#751 LFC

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Posted 31 October 2018 - 03:13 PM

View PostAnBr, on 31 October 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:


Traveler had put up the Ritholtz takedown earlier. My view from what I've read by him over the years is that I would not necessarily want to find myself on the other side of an economic argument from him. You may disagree with his conclusions but the man does his homework and understands history ... as compared to hacks like Laffer and Kudlow.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#752 LFC

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Posted 26 November 2018 - 08:34 PM

Here's a couple of interesting graphs that show us what we already know.

Posted Image

Posted Image
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#753 AnBr

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Posted 26 November 2018 - 10:49 PM

That last graph looks to be the same that Rep Kennedy posted.
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#754 AnBr

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Posted 26 November 2018 - 10:50 PM

Here's when machines will take your job, as predicted by A.I. gurus

Posted Image
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#755 HockeyDon

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Posted 27 November 2018 - 08:15 AM

YES! I'm safe! Engineering not listed!
Well, fuck.

How can I be expected to distinguish BS from reality when so much of my reality is utter BS?!

"There seems to be a lot of people dying of ignorance while living in the information age." my sister-in-law.

#756 Traveler

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 10:59 PM

Yeah, but I think that's an oversight...Probably sooner than surgeons. Face it, we just apply the same algorithms, it's our experience in coordinating them that takes a while to develop. That can be trained in pretty quickly IMO.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#757 LFC

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 11:11 PM

View PostTraveler, on 01 December 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

Yeah, but I think that's an oversight...Probably sooner than surgeons. Face it, we just apply the same algorithms, it's our experience in coordinating them that takes a while to develop. That can be trained in pretty quickly IMO.

I’m not sure I agree with that. Engineering requires you to solve different problems your entire career. Medicine repeatedly tries to solve the same set of problems. It’s one of the reasons AI and learning systems were first applied to medicine.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#758 JackD

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 11:55 PM

I think you underestimate the variety, evolution, and novelty that occur in medical problems.

#759 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 10:09 AM

View PostLFC, on 01 December 2018 - 11:11 PM, said:

I’m not sure I agree with that. Engineering requires you to solve different problems your entire career. Medicine repeatedly tries to solve the same set of problems. It’s one of the reasons AI and learning systems were first applied to medicine.

They may be the same set of problems [1] but that doesn't mean that they're the ones you know how to solve. In medicine, there are (to pick just ID) countless infectious diseases that a doc has never seen and that can land on her doorstep. $HERSELF quite likely would have died if she'd gone to a US hospital with the typhoid she picked up in Mexico, but it was a Mexican hospital and the ER doc took one look at the rash after hearing the symptoms and popped her into an ice bath with IV chloramphenicol stat. I doubt most US hospitals even stock chloramphenicol.

Then of course, there are the countless ways that trauma can manifest. "Oh, it's just a gunshot wound." Like Hell - what did the bullet hit, where are the fragments of it and perhaps the bone, what damage did it do to nerves and blood vessels that will kill the patient before you even think about repair, etc. etc. Repairing damaged bodies is a freaking art -- you can't just replace broken parts. You can't put it back like new. What you can do, and have to do, is create a new if less perfect body out of the pieces that trauma left you. Art.

[1] Actually, you'd be amazed how often engineers ignore basics that they learned as undergraduates because they didn't use them every day. And, yes, I'm thinking in particular of Kirckhoff's laws.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#760 HockeyDon

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 05:58 PM

View PostTraveler, on 01 December 2018 - 10:59 PM, said:

Yeah, but I think that's an oversight...Probably sooner than surgeons. Face it, we just apply the same algorithms, it's our experience in coordinating them that takes a while to develop. That can be trained in pretty quickly IMO.

In all honesty, I view it as a bit of a double-edged sword. There are so many aspects of my day-to-day routine that are mind-numbingly repetitive and that could be done by a well-trained high school dropout. For those things, it would be nice to let computers take care of it. On the other hand, the idea that computers will be making the sort of intuitive leaps people make now (in this specific case, engineers) but rather through the raw brute strength of computing power should be enough worry nearly every profession.
Well, fuck.

How can I be expected to distinguish BS from reality when so much of my reality is utter BS?!

"There seems to be a lot of people dying of ignorance while living in the information age." my sister-in-law.





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