Jump to content


The Trump Phenomenon


3666 replies to this topic

#3661 MSheridan

    Human, for lack of options

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2507 posts
  • LocationSacramento, CA

Posted 18 October 2017 - 02:50 PM

View PostTraveler, on 18 October 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

Funny, I thought progressive would apply to the more realistic on the left, not the PC crowd. Hence my question. I thought liberal just meant left of center. We need a good pejorative term for the far left whackos.

What I'm guessing you mean by "more realistic" is something reasonably close to having "preferred markers for progress that are more concrete." Speaking of which, what does "far left whacko" mean to you, exactly? What ideology are we talking about here?

Also, the "PC crowd" (to the extent they aren't a simple projection of conservative fears) aren't liberals.

#3662 Traveler

    Rambling Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 11242 posts
  • LocationPhilly Area

Posted 18 October 2017 - 03:04 PM

Basically folks like us that don't like Sanderites are what I would call progressive. We seek a fair agenda, built on evolution, not revolution (mainly because we realize that wont work). We seek progress. OTOH, the PC speech safe space snowflakes as the Dumpsters call them (for good reason IMO), along with Antifa are far left wackos. Even though less ostensibly deluded, I think Sanderites are wackos too. Not because of their goals, which I concur with, but because of their self-righteousness. This is a streak that goes through all three flavors of wacko.

So liberal does not include these pathetic folks? Good to know. Where does liberalism stop? Hard question, especially when a liberal means libertarian conservative in most other countries. Which is why I asked. Thanks for your opinions.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"We never threaten anyone. We just explain the situation." Russian spokesman

#3663 Gray Area

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts

Posted 18 October 2017 - 03:40 PM

So … all that makes me … confused. But, I can live with it.

#3664 D. C. Sessions

    I don't have to pretend to be an adult any more

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 6854 posts
  • LocationCentral New Mexico

Posted 18 October 2017 - 03:47 PM

View PostTraveler, on 18 October 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

Stupid question: can anyone define for me the difference between liberal and progressive?

In much of the world, "liberal" is roughly what "libertarian" is here -- think "neoliberal." "Progressive" is more leftish and not so much minarchist. Think the Progressive Era in the USA, updated.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
The purpose of "defense spending" isn't "defense," it's "spending."
Our Party! In her relations with other Americans may she always be in the right; but Our Party, right or wrong!

#3665 AnBr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10266 posts

Posted 18 October 2017 - 09:39 PM

View PostTraveler, on 18 October 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

Stupid question: can anyone define for me the difference between liberal and progressive?

I always saw liberalism as a set of left leaning ideals, economically and socially and progressivism as a pragmatic approach to solve problems, usually defined by liberalism.

In a statement by the Center for American Progress’ John Halprin:

Quote

At its core, progressivism is a non-ideological, pragmatic system of thought grounded in solving problems and maintaining strong values within society.

The original progressive movement at the turn of the 20th century sought to improve American life by encouraging personal and moral responsibility among citizens; by providing the carrots and sticks to promote efficient and ethical business behavior; and by reforming government to provide a level playing field for all citizens and groups.

Theodore Roosevelt’s brand of progressive reform appealed to a broad coalition of Americans and created a legacy of social and political change that battled social decay and modernized urban politics; reined in corporate corruption and abuse; expanded voting rights and democratic input; and – despite its jingoistic enterprises – set the stage for American intervention in defense of democracy.

Progressivism offers a panoply of strong, concrete ideas for today’s America, ideas that can help us move beyond the debilitating ideological debates that dominate our political discourse.

[…]

Progressivism is an orientation towards politics. It’s not a long-standing ideology like liberalism, but an historically-grounded concept … that accepts the world as dynamic.

This fits with the link I posted here a while back about Richard Rorty.

Quote

“I propose to use the term reformist Left,” Rorty wrote, “to cover all those Americans who, between 1900 and 1964, struggled within the framework of constitutional democracy to protect the weak from the strong.” The emphasis on constitutional democracy is paramount here. Reformists believed in the system, and wanted to improve it from within.

[…]

Before the 1960s, the American left was largely reformist in its orientation to politics. Think of the people who engineered the New Deal or the Ivy-educated technocrats that joined Kennedy in the White House. John Kenneth Galbraith, the liberal economist and public official who served in the administrations of FDR, Truman, Kennedy, and Johnson, is a favorite of Rorty’s. These were the liberals who weren’t socialist radicals but nevertheless worked to promote the same causes within and through the system. They were liberal reformers, not revolutionary leftists, and they got things done.

"The reformist left was a big tent. It included people who thought of themselves as communists and socialist as well as moderate left-of-center Democrats. What united them was a devotion to pragmatic reform; there were no purity tests, no totalizing calls for revolution, as was common among Marxists at the time. But they were “feared and hated by the Right” because they gave us the fundaments of the modern welfare state.

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995

#3666 AnBr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10266 posts

Posted 18 October 2017 - 09:43 PM

View Postgolden_valley, on 18 October 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

Yeah but that's the opinion of a so-called judge on an island surrounded by water somewhere far away from New York.

This is an island surrounded by water, big water, ocean water
"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995

#3667 nuser

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 953 posts

Posted 18 October 2017 - 10:15 PM

Liberalism to me is the protection of Liberal and legal rights of every human U.S. Citizen regardless of creed or colour!
To be sure that principle is not working very well, but hopefully people are recognizing the value thereof.then of course
Progressionism is a follow up on liberalism an advancement so to speak on liberalism ,and guess what -nosey bitch is back-
My point is they are closely related.





2 user(s) are reading this topic

1 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users