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What Isis really wants...


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#1 Sinan

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 09:47 AM

http://www.theatlant...y-wants/384980/

I recently re-read a book about the history of the ME called "In the shadow of the sword" by Tom Holland. If you are interested in the real history behind the rise of the various religions and civilizations in the fertile crescent at the end of the Roman Empire, read this book. It goes into depth on the OT, the NT, the Koran, Iranshahar, Rome, the eastern roman empire and so much more, it is a great read and it will blow your mind to say the least. The second read was just as good as the first one. The reason I mention it is because when I read this piece in the Atlantic, it referenced specific words, deeds and concepts from the history of Islam that is covered in depth in this fine book.

The article in the Atlantic is likely the most accurate thing I have read on Isis to date. It is not a white washed version of Islam or the true meaning of a caliphate. Isis wants to return to 900 - 1400AD, that is the time period in which the Koran became monolithic in a sense, it became law and the abiding code of a civilization rather than just a bunch of tribes fighting in the desert. What Isis wants is clearly in the Koran, they are following the true meaning of it. Imagine a nation run by the OT and you will get an understanding of what is really go on here. I realize that Islam has changed and that these ideas are not representative of Islam today but believe me, Isis is a lot closer to the Islam of the 900s than most want to believe.

http://www.amazon.co...+by+tom+holland
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#2 anniemargret

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 11:38 AM

First, I'm apologizing for yet again for another goodbye and return. I think that I may have 4 swan songs on this site. I think it's because I get frustrated being a different voice that sparks so much frustration.

That said, I *promise* if I decide to leave, I will do so without announcement.

Sinan, this is a fabulous sum-up for this book, one I hope to pick at the library to read.

I think we sparked a tremendous anger that has evolved into ISIS, by our meddling in the Middle East for decades, and our so obvious penchant to protect Israel over the Palestinians. There are Palestinians being killed as well, but we don't look there too often.

The Bushes caused untold suffering and pain in that area of the world, in their efforts to effect a Big Footprint there for all the wrong reasons. ISIS in many respects, are our creation. We reap what we sow.
- "If voting made any difference, they wouldn't let us do it."
- "Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
- "Politicians and diapers must be changed often. And for the same reason."

-Mark Twain (1835-1981), American author, humorist

"I felt more keenly than before the need of a philosophy that would do justice to the infinite vitality of Nature. In all things I saw the passion of life for growth and greatness, the drama of everlasting creation.

I came to think of myself, not as a dance and chaos of molecules, but as a brief and minute portion of that majestic process. . . In a measure the Great Sadness was lifted from me, and, where I had seen omnipresent death, I saw now everywhere the pageant and triumph of life."

- Will Durant (1885-1981), historian, writer, philosopher

#3 Practical Girl

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 12:28 PM

View Postanniemargret, on 15 November 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

First, I'm apologizing for yet again for another goodbye and return. I think that I may have 4 swan songs on this site. I think it's because I get frustrated being a different voice that sparks so much frustration.

That said, I *promise* if I decide to leave, I will do so without announcement.

Sinan, this is a fabulous sum-up for this book, one I hope to pick at the library to read.

I think we sparked a tremendous anger that has evolved into ISIS, by our meddling in the Middle East for decades, and our so obvious penchant to protect Israel over the Palestinians. There are Palestinians being killed as well, but we don't look there too often.

The Bushes caused untold suffering and pain in that area of the world, in their efforts to effect a Big Footprint there for all the wrong reasons. ISIS in many respects, are our creation. We reap what we sow.

Welcome back, lady...We never thought you could resist for long. Perhaps just learn to say it "Taking a break", rather than "goodbye".
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--- On September 17, 1787, as Benjamin Franklin was leaving the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention, at Independence Hall, in Philadelphia, a woman called out to him, saying, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?”
“A republic,” Franklin said, “if you can keep it.”

#4 Sinan

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 12:29 PM

Well, many say that Islam is a religion of peace but that is just wishful thinking on our part and a recognition that for many of the worlds Muslims, a period of enlightenment is in process of becoming reality. Unfortunately though, enough of them exist who see the Koran as the sole guide to heaven and Allah's grace. These people actually think the Koran should be read literally and enforced mercilessly. We need to grasp this essential truth or they will grow in power. I hate war, was against both Iraq wars and of course Vietnam but some wars are indeed "good" wars and this may end up being our next "good" war. In this age of global communications, it will be hard to wage all out war but maybe that is the only way to crush them. Total, complete annihilation without regard for casualties. Given what the leaders of Isis are saying in public, that is what they want. They might be getting it real soon.
"anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist."
Kenneth Boulding

"A person who reads books lives a thousand lives. A person who never reads lives only one"
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Zappa

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#5 Banty

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 12:53 PM

View PostSinan, on 15 November 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

Well, many say that Islam is a religion of peace but that is just wishful thinking on our part and a recognition that for many of the worlds Muslims, a period of enlightenment is in process of becoming reality. Unfortunately though, enough of them exist who see the Koran as the sole guide to heaven and Allah's grace. These people actually think the Koran should be read literally and enforced mercilessly. We need to grasp this essential truth or they will grow in power. I hate war, was against both Iraq wars and of course Vietnam but some wars are indeed "good" wars and this may end up being our next "good" war. In this age of global communications, it will be hard to wage all out war but maybe that is the only way to crush them. Total, complete annihilation without regard for casualties. Given what the leaders of Isis are saying in public, that is what they want. They might be getting it real soon.

"Islam" *is* derived from the word for peace - the same Semitic root as "Salaam".

That said, yes, it's just the name - it's the fundamentalism that is the problem. As for Christian literalist sects. Although the aherents to the latter haven't manifested themselves violently.

Yet.

This event shoves me closer to the anti-religion view, much like how Christopher Hitchens reacted to 9/11. And Charlie Hebdo tweeted for people not to offer them their prayers as they've had a bellyful of religion this week.

A word on the "radical/jihadist Islam against western civilization" theme: From a worldwide standpoint, Islam *is* part of western civilization. It's an Abrahamic religion derived from both Judaism and Christianity, and it shares with them messianic, (in the case of Xtianity at least) apocolyptic, exclusivist, visions obsessively focused on one region of the world in one set range of historical time.

It's far, far, from the religions and worldviews of East and South Asia, the Americas originally, etc.

It's not "western civilization" that they want to bring down, it's *liberal secular" society. To hear the right wing rhetoric about this is scary - it's uninformed, and joins right in with parts of their message though they'd vehemently deny it.
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#6 Sinan

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 01:11 PM

View PostBanty, on 15 November 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

"Islam" *is* derived from the word for peace - the same Semitic root as "Salaam".

That said, yes, it's just the name - it's the fundamentalism that is the problem. As for Christian literalist sects. Although the aherents to the latter haven't manifested themselves violently.

Yet.

This event shoves me closer to the anti-religion view, much like how Christopher Hitchens reacted to 9/11. And Charlie Hebdo tweeted for people not to offer them their prayers as they've had a bellyful of religion this week.

A word on the "radical/jihadist Islam against western civilization" theme: From a worldwide standpoint, Islam *is* part of western civilization. It's an Abrahamic religion derived from both Judaism and Christianity, and it shares with them messianic, (in the case of Xtianity at least) apocolyptic, exclusivist, visions obsessively focused on one region of the world in one set range of historical time.

It's far, far, from the religions and worldviews of East and South Asia, the Americas originally, etc.

It's not "western civilization" that they want to bring down, it's *liberal secular" society. To hear the right wing rhetoric about this is scary - it's uninformed, and joins right in with parts of their message though they'd vehemently deny it.

Banty, read the article, it states clearly what they want. They have put out statements stating they wish to start a war of wars with us and us means the West as we generally know it today. It is not a geographical term to them, it is a term signifying the European powers that Arabs and Persians have been fighting for thousands of years. One has to know the history of this region going back 2000 years to get where they are coming from, it is that crazy. Remember, Islam (peace) only comes after conquest, acceptance of Allah and his prophet and total abeyance to the teachings of the Koran. Once there, you get peace. Until you get there, it is nothing but death, enslavement and persecution. These fuckers are medieval, they are not to be ignored.
"anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist."
Kenneth Boulding

"A person who reads books lives a thousand lives. A person who never reads lives only one"
George Martin

"Is that a real poncho or a Sears poncho?"
Zappa

"and let not mankind bogart love"

Willie Nelson and Colbert

#7 Progressive whisperer

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 01:32 PM

Islam and the First Caliphate were on a similar path to Europesn Christianity, possibly a bit ahead, until the Mongol invasions. With their civilization virtually destroyed, they turned to the view that the advances of the civilization that we view as "liberal" which softened the Koran, had caused God to visit this calamity on them.

Ever hear language like that elsewhere? We might be one failed state away from a similar Christian movement. We already had one African warlord call his child-soldiers "The Lord's Army" as they raped and butchered their countrymen. Much different scale, and much less mainstream than ISIS, who's theology seems to differ in degree, not kind, from Saudi Arabia's Wahhabism, but still...

Ireland is one of the last intra-Christian fights, and it's less than 50 years since they stopped killing one another.

Oh yes, on geography, the Abrahamic religions all originated in the "Middle East", so I guess East vs. West works. Really though, between Iraq and now the Syrian civil war plus Yemen the local civilian casualties in the ME must be over a quarter million. We get ready to go to all-out "kill-'em-all" warfare because of 130 "Western" casualties? The workers who make our clothing in Bangledesh suffer worse death rates in industrial "accidents".


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#8 Sinan

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 01:40 PM

Prog, I just saw a special report or interview on FSTV with a man who has made it his cause to expose the atrocities in Bangladesh clothing sweat shops. He was quite moving. One horrible instance was when a building literally collapsed with over 1000 workers trapped inside. They had all seen massive cracks in the building (8 stories high) and refused to enter for days until the mob bosses basically threatened them and their families with death. So they all went in at once, in less than an hour the power went out and the generators went on. That vibration set up the collapse of the entire building in seconds. I think they worked for Gap or H/M.
"anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist."
Kenneth Boulding

"A person who reads books lives a thousand lives. A person who never reads lives only one"
George Martin

"Is that a real poncho or a Sears poncho?"
Zappa

"and let not mankind bogart love"

Willie Nelson and Colbert

#9 Banty

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 01:51 PM

View PostSinan, on 15 November 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

Banty, read the article, it states clearly what they want. They have put out statements stating they wish to start a war of wars with us and us means the West as we generally know it today. It is not a geographical term to them, it is a term signifying the European powers that Arabs and Persians have been fighting for thousands of years. One has to know the history of this region going back 2000 years to get where they are coming from, it is that crazy. Remember, Islam (peace) only comes after conquest, acceptance of Allah and his prophet and total abeyance to the teachings of the Koran. Once there, you get peace. Until you get there, it is nothing but death, enslavement and persecution. These fuckers are medieval, they are not to be ignored.

I know how *they* define it - we can have a clearer head about it, at least in this forum can't we?
"It can happen here. It is happening here. No election has been more important in my lifetime." - Andrew Sullivan, 7/21/2016
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#10 Banty

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 01:53 PM

View PostProgressive whisperer, on 15 November 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

Islam and the First Caliphate were on a similar path to Europesn Christianity, possibly a bit ahead, until the Mongol invasions. With their civilization virtually destroyed, they turned to the view that the advances of the civilization that we view as "liberal" which softened the Koran, had caused God to visit this calamity on them.

Ever hear language like that elsewhere? We might be one failed state away from a similar Christian movement. We already had one African warlord call his child-soldiers "The Lord's Army" as they raped and butchered their countrymen. Much different scale, and much less mainstream than ISIS, who's theology seems to differ in degree, not kind, from Saudi Arabia's Wahhabism, but still...

Ireland is one of the last intra-Christian fights, and it's less than 50 years since they stopped killing one another.

Oh yes, on geography, the Abrahamic religions all originated in the "Middle East", so I guess East vs. West works. Really though, between Iraq and now the Syrian civil war plus Yemen the local civilian casualties in the ME must be over a quarter million. We get ready to go to all-out "kill-'em-all" warfare because of 130 "Western" casualties? The workers who make our clothing in Bangledesh suffer worse death rates in industrial "accidents".

Quibble - I think the Northern Ireland situation, like others (Israel-Palestine), really are tribal/national conflicts where the two parties happen to have different religions.
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#11 Practical Girl

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 02:03 PM

In an historic perspective, is there any religion- in a power construct- that has gotten there within "peace"? As a heritage Catholic, I shake my head "no".
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--- On September 17, 1787, as Benjamin Franklin was leaving the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention, at Independence Hall, in Philadelphia, a woman called out to him, saying, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?”
“A republic,” Franklin said, “if you can keep it.”

#12 Traveler

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 02:12 PM

Over the last two weeks, Daesh has killed ~50 dead in Lebanon, ~200 in Sinai and another ~150 in Paris. Not that Daesh can keep up that sort of pace, but comparing that to greedy capitalists is kind of facile. By that logic, we should use Bhopal to excuse 9-11.

I am all for reasoned discussion to address this (you should see the histrionics at BB!), but I don't find excuses all that convincing either. That Atlantic article is pretty damning.

Edited by Traveler, 15 November 2015 - 02:19 PM.

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#13 Progressive whisperer

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 03:46 PM

View PostTraveler, on 15 November 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

Over the last two weeks, Daesh has killed ~50 dead in Lebanon, ~200 in Sinai and another ~150 in Paris. Not that Daesh can keep up that sort of pace, but comparing that to greedy capitalists is kind of facile. By that logic, we should use Bhopal to excuse 9-11.

I am all for reasoned discussion to address this (you should see the histrionics at BB!), but I don't find excuses all that convincing either. That Atlantic article is pretty damning.

Not excusing anything, pointing out a warped perspective that is basically as "tribal" as anything: any number of people "over there" killed by Daesh or in the interest of cheap consumer goods and we collectively shrug. "Waddah ya gonna do?" Four Anericans die in Bengahzi or 100 people in Paris; worst thing ever! it's gotta be stopped, do SOMETHING!

ETA: see CMK's post on the Paris thread for the shorter version.

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#14 anniemargret

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 04:18 PM

View PostPractical Girl, on 15 November 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

Welcome back, lady...We never thought you could resist for long. Perhaps just learn to say it "Taking a break", rather than "goodbye".

I guess I never really went away, PG. But I like your advice. ;)
- "If voting made any difference, they wouldn't let us do it."
- "Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
- "Politicians and diapers must be changed often. And for the same reason."

-Mark Twain (1835-1981), American author, humorist

"I felt more keenly than before the need of a philosophy that would do justice to the infinite vitality of Nature. In all things I saw the passion of life for growth and greatness, the drama of everlasting creation.

I came to think of myself, not as a dance and chaos of molecules, but as a brief and minute portion of that majestic process. . . In a measure the Great Sadness was lifted from me, and, where I had seen omnipresent death, I saw now everywhere the pageant and triumph of life."

- Will Durant (1885-1981), historian, writer, philosopher

#15 anniemargret

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 04:31 PM

View PostPractical Girl, on 15 November 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

In an historic perspective, is there any religion- in a power construct- that has gotten there within "peace"? As a heritage Catholic, I shake my head "no".

No. It will never happen. Because human beings are deeply flawed. We will kill each other over differences in religion, in culture, and territory. Our animal natures supersede our abilities to be noble.

Every year I buy Christmas/Hanukkah cards. Every year I write, "Joy, Love and Pray for Peace." There are peaceful people who spread it. But the fanatics always trump them.

But Charlie Hebdo is wrong. It is perfectly OK to pray for peace, as long as we understand that we are praying for the human race, and not just for our special interest groups within religions.
- "If voting made any difference, they wouldn't let us do it."
- "Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
- "Politicians and diapers must be changed often. And for the same reason."

-Mark Twain (1835-1981), American author, humorist

"I felt more keenly than before the need of a philosophy that would do justice to the infinite vitality of Nature. In all things I saw the passion of life for growth and greatness, the drama of everlasting creation.

I came to think of myself, not as a dance and chaos of molecules, but as a brief and minute portion of that majestic process. . . In a measure the Great Sadness was lifted from me, and, where I had seen omnipresent death, I saw now everywhere the pageant and triumph of life."

- Will Durant (1885-1981), historian, writer, philosopher

#16 drdredel

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 04:39 PM

View Postanniemargret, on 15 November 2015 - 04:31 PM, said:

No. It will never happen. Because human beings are deeply flawed. We will kill each other over differences in religion, in culture, and territory. Our animal natures supersede our abilities to be noble.

Every year I buy Christmas/Hanukkah cards. Every year I write, "Joy, Love and Pray for Peace." There are peaceful people who spread it. But the fanatics always trump them.

But Charlie Hebdo is wrong. It is perfectly OK to pray for peace, as long as we understand that we are praying for the human race, and not just for our special interest groups within religions.

I think that the sentiment in the cartoon appeals to reason. There's so much about the French in general and Paris in particular that the world can rejoice in and celebrate. The misery they are experiencing today is born of religion - their point is that it is ironic and unnecessary for anyone to "pray" for them. Also, I believe a majority of them are atheist, so, to pray for them is basically to do nothing at all, as they see it.
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#17 anniemargret

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 07:01 PM

View Postdrdredel, on 15 November 2015 - 04:39 PM, said:

I think that the sentiment in the cartoon appeals to reason. There's so much about the French in general and Paris in particular that the world can rejoice in and celebrate. The misery they are experiencing today is born of religion - their point is that it is ironic and unnecessary for anyone to "pray" for them. Also, I believe a majority of them are atheist, so, to pray for them is basically to do nothing at all, as they see it.

OK. perhaps. I just mean that if I pray for a person, leader, country, it is done using my own standard of prayer. I never do malign prayer too much. If prayer means that you pray to a higher power for peace and love to exist in that person's world, or in the larger sense, a country, it would hurt no one. True prayer is done in secret. I pray ever day for my family and friends, and yes, I pray for the world.

No harm done, Dr. D. If I pray for something evil or selfish, then it is not true prayer. At least in the Christian sense, it is always done in the name of God and it is always for peace and love to ensue. Anything else is a bastardization of it, as so much of today's religion is.

I had a friend some years ago, Dr. Littleton from Occidental. We had hearty debates about things, and we agreed on most, except he was a 'card carrying atheist.' I respected his feelings, but oddly enough when he was going in for his 3rd or 4th heart surgery, he asked me to pray for him. He said, 'hey, what the heck." It was sorta of a joke.

Except he died from the last surgery. My prayers weren't answered for him, and sometimes they aren't, but the there is a beauty of prayer if done unselfishly, and in some cases, a power from it. (But we won't get into that)!

So I do understand Hebdo associating all religious sentiment with hate and fear. Totally understandable given the horror we are witnessing from these Islamist fanatics, or with the religion taken to its zenith of hate and fear.
- "If voting made any difference, they wouldn't let us do it."
- "Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
- "Politicians and diapers must be changed often. And for the same reason."

-Mark Twain (1835-1981), American author, humorist

"I felt more keenly than before the need of a philosophy that would do justice to the infinite vitality of Nature. In all things I saw the passion of life for growth and greatness, the drama of everlasting creation.

I came to think of myself, not as a dance and chaos of molecules, but as a brief and minute portion of that majestic process. . . In a measure the Great Sadness was lifted from me, and, where I had seen omnipresent death, I saw now everywhere the pageant and triumph of life."

- Will Durant (1885-1981), historian, writer, philosopher

#18 Sinan

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 07:57 PM

View PostBanty, on 15 November 2015 - 01:51 PM, said:

I know how *they* define it - we can have a clearer head about it, at least in this forum can't we?

Yes but a clearer head will not persuade them. This is the real issue. We think they can bend to reason. They cannot. At some point we will end up annihilating them in a barbaric show of military power. But given their numbers and their strength, I don't see how we can avoid it much longer. I hate this stuff but at the end of the day, if you piss us all off (the West), you are going to pay. Isis wants this, this is who they are. It is like being in the middle ages.
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"A person who reads books lives a thousand lives. A person who never reads lives only one"
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"Is that a real poncho or a Sears poncho?"
Zappa

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#19 drdredel

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 08:02 PM

View Postanniemargret, on 15 November 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

OK. perhaps. I just mean that if I pray for a person, leader, country, it is done using my own standard of prayer. I never do malign prayer too much. If prayer means that you pray to a higher power for peace and love to exist in that person's world, or in the larger sense, a country, it would hurt no one. True prayer is done in secret. I pray ever day for my family and friends, and yes, I pray for the world.

No harm done, Dr. D. If I pray for something evil or selfish, then it is not true prayer. At least in the Christian sense, it is always done in the name of God and it is always for peace and love to ensue. Anything else is a bastardization of it, as so much of today's religion is.

I had a friend some years ago, Dr. Littleton from Occidental. We had hearty debates about things, and we agreed on most, except he was a 'card carrying atheist.' I respected his feelings, but oddly enough when he was going in for his 3rd or 4th heart surgery, he asked me to pray for him. He said, 'hey, what the heck." It was sorta of a joke.

Except he died from the last surgery. My prayers weren't answered for him, and sometimes they aren't, but the there is a beauty of prayer if done unselfishly, and in some cases, a power from it. (But we won't get into that)!

So I do understand Hebdo associating all religious sentiment with hate and fear. Totally understandable given the horror we are witnessing from these Islamist fanatics, or with the religion taken to its zenith of hate and fear.

Right... and this isn't worth getting hung-up on, but you also need to keep in mind that that cartoon wasn't in response to the assumption that there are people out there who might be saying a prayer for the folks in Paris. It was a response to a specific trending Twitter hashtag (#prayforparis). The notion here is that since the killers presumably did a lot of praying of their own prior to and during the attacks, to recommend prayer as a remedy is to some extent a recommendation to engage in a religious war.

The Hebdo cartoonist seems to imply (and I agree with him) that if the nature of the conflict is religious then ironically and sadly, an act of kindness (prayer in solace for the victims and the bereaved) turns into an act of warfare by its very nature. It's obviously all symbolic, but you have to remember that these attacks are also symbolic. Isis doesn't actually have any means to bring about the end of the Western world. All they can do is make a lot of noise and cause a lot of grief.
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#20 drdredel

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 08:09 PM

View PostSinan, on 15 November 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

Yes but a clearer head will not persuade them. This is the real issue. We think they can bend to reason. They cannot. At some point we will end up annihilating them in a barbaric show of military power. But given their numbers and their strength, I don't see how we can avoid it much longer. I hate this stuff but at the end of the day, if you piss us all off (the West), you are going to pay. Isis wants this, this is who they are. It is like being in the middle ages.

I don't think we can annihilate "them" because "they" are a chimera. Sure, you can argue that Isis is the most barbaric of the bunch and I can agree with you, but the nature of their tactics isn't really the issue. Before Isis we had (seventeen flavors of) Al Qaeda and before them the Taliban, and in Iran you have the Supreme Leader (and his gang) and ultimately what these people seek is to bring about (or retain - depending on who we're talking about) an iron-fisted theocracy.

So long as there are masses of people who agree that the best way to live is in a theocracy and as long as some number of those people are willing to take arms to bring about those ends, we're not in a position to do anything meaningful militarily. The more people we kill the easier it is for them to recruit 10x the replacements.

The solution is going to take a long time and it's going to require that the people who live in those parts of the world currently under theocratic rule move with force to demand (maybe violently) that the theocracies be replaced by secular democracies.

This may sound utopian and possibly it is, but I think it's the only solution that ultimately brings about the outcome we're all hoping for.

And of course most importantly (as demonstrated by Iraq and Afghanistan) we simply can't do this for them. We can give them guidance and send them lots of cheerleaders and of course we *could stop doing business with the likes of Saudi Arabia! But every time a U.S. bomb blows up a home in which you have 3 terrorists and 9 wives and children you can bet your ass you've just converted every survivor into the most brazen terrorist imaginable.

Consider how (western-ish) Chechen women, who lost their husbands and sons took up barbaric suicidal tactics in Russia. I hate to say it, but I can't blame them. If a missile with the U.S. flag came through my window and killed my family and left me alive - I'd be strapping on an IED and heading to the nearest market lickedy split.
The Blind have lost their sense of "sight";
The Deaf have lost their sense of "hearing";
Republicans have lost their sense of "common".





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