Jump to content


All things corporate malfeasance (and specifically Volkswagen)


82 replies to this topic

#1 drdredel

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2418 posts

Posted 21 September 2015 - 06:46 PM

http://www.nytimes.c...res-recall.html

This isn't an "oops". This is willful deception and violation of the law. If no one goes to jail for this, then why should any criminal organization not be eligible to just pay a fine and move on?
The Blind have lost their sense of "sight";
The Deaf have lost their sense of "hearing";
Republicans have lost their sense of "common".

#2 D. C. Sessions

    I don't have to pretend to be an adult any more

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9557 posts
  • LocationCentral New Mexico

Posted 22 September 2015 - 08:24 AM

Great timing for the Lynch Memo, eh?
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#3 drdredel

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2418 posts

Posted 22 September 2015 - 11:22 AM

 D. C. Sessions, on 22 September 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

Great timing for the Lynch Memo, eh?

Can we refer to the people working on her behalf as the lynch mob? (I know... very low hanging fruit - sorry).

I'm also working on a punchline along the lines of "what were we supposed to expect from a company started by Hitler??"
The Blind have lost their sense of "sight";
The Deaf have lost their sense of "hearing";
Republicans have lost their sense of "common".

#4 drdredel

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2418 posts

Posted 22 September 2015 - 11:31 AM

Ok but all kidding aside (and Charles if you would like to rename this thread to something like "All things Corporate Malfeasance" - or if there's enough meat on this bone - all things Volkswagen) consider this comment from today's NYTimes article about this story

Quote

CrustyJusty
Ann Arbor, MI 3 hours ago
I used to work on emissions control software for one of the Big Three.

The engine control and emissions diagnostics software is incredibly complex. We had hundreds of software developers, calibrators, validation experts, etc., working on these efforts. If you worked on oxygen sensors or catalytic converters, or vehicle speed or really anything, the software would interface with dozens of other functional areas.

There is absolutely no way that one or multiple emissions tests could be disabled without dozens of people knowing. Maybe hundreds. We would sometimes review single lines of code with dozens of engineers in the room, for fear that a specific emissions test wouldn't run appropriately in real-world conditions.

So, in my somewhat educated opinion, there is simply no way that this effort didn't involve a concerted effort by many individuals, and I would expect the evidence to prove that out.



I'm also a software engineer and this was exactly the thought that went through my head. There's no way that something this complex (a system designed to detect when the car was being tested for emissions and to produce a totally different engine output profile????!!!!???) could have been worked on by only a handful of people.

Which makes me wonder how in hell did anyone think that they were going to get away with this?
The Blind have lost their sense of "sight";
The Deaf have lost their sense of "hearing";
Republicans have lost their sense of "common".

#5 Progressive whisperer

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10233 posts

Posted 22 September 2015 - 11:56 AM

On one hand, a peanut executive is going away for 28 years for deliberately selling nuts that test positive for salmonella and killing a dozen people.

OTOH, that was a rarity, and we rarely convict policemen for blatantly shooting unarmed people, so I don't know if we actually imprison someone. Plus, do we send up ALL the software engineers, or just the highest ranking guy we can prove knew about it?

Trump delenda est.
GOP delenda est.
Resist!

#6 AnBr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13060 posts

Posted 22 September 2015 - 12:06 PM

 drdredel, on 22 September 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

Ok but all kidding aside (and Charles if you would like to rename this thread to something like "All things Corporate Malfeasance"

You can do that yourself. Edit the first post and hit "Use Full Editor".
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#7 Practical Girl

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 8119 posts
  • LocationAustin TX

Posted 22 September 2015 - 12:07 PM

Wrt software development, the NYT link indicates basically the same.

Quote

The software used to manipulate emissions tests in the United States, and the extensive attempts by Volkswagen to deflect official scrutiny before admitting misconduct this month, suggest that the cheating was not just the work of a few rogue engineers.

As egregious as it is, though, I am less concerned about a for-profit corporate machine "cheating" than I am about an EPA that allows that machine to develop it's own software for emissions tests. Where is the "protective check and balance" in this equation.

An interesting understatement- even a bit of a dodge- from WH press secretary:

Quote

"It's fair to say that we're quite concerned by some of the reports that we've seen about the conduct of this particular company, but ultimately this is the responsibility of the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) to take a look at it and that's exactly what they're doing," said White House spokesman Josh Earnest

I think it's a fair bet that nobody's really watching this, and probably a safe bet that other manufacturers may have done something similar.
Every woman needs a blowtorch.
---Julia Child


--- On September 17, 1787, as Benjamin Franklin was leaving the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention, at Independence Hall, in Philadelphia, a woman called out to him, saying, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?”
“A republic,” Franklin said, “if you can keep it.”


--- LFC, on Gorsuch ruling: "Awesome. A Christianist who swore an oath to uphold the laws of the nation and bore false witness when he did it"

--- "Write hard and clear about what hurts"
Ernest Hemingway

#8 indy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9101 posts

Posted 22 September 2015 - 12:07 PM

Let's resist the temptation to blindly issue accusations. It could be a large conspiracy or it could be a tightly controlled effort by a relatively small team that had access to the software after it was 'officially' released by the engineers but before it made it onto the boards, which would probably be my guess.

#9 Practical Girl

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 8119 posts
  • LocationAustin TX

Posted 22 September 2015 - 12:14 PM

FWIW, an article from an industry publication with a bit more depth about what analysts are saying/seeing.
Every woman needs a blowtorch.
---Julia Child


--- On September 17, 1787, as Benjamin Franklin was leaving the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention, at Independence Hall, in Philadelphia, a woman called out to him, saying, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?”
“A republic,” Franklin said, “if you can keep it.”


--- LFC, on Gorsuch ruling: "Awesome. A Christianist who swore an oath to uphold the laws of the nation and bore false witness when he did it"

--- "Write hard and clear about what hurts"
Ernest Hemingway

#10 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 28142 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 22 September 2015 - 12:52 PM

In addition to the massive fines they deserve, I hope that the Feds pin the cost of retrofitting every impacted vehicle in the country back on VW with the threat that if they refuse, all of their vehicles will be banned for sale in the U.S. The top management of companies make risk/return decisions all the time. If we up the risk (massive fines, crushing mitigation requirements, and jail time for top people involved), the equation changes drastically.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#11 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 28142 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 22 September 2015 - 12:54 PM

I'd also like to say that after my last experience owning a VW Golf in the early 2000s, I would never even set foot in one of their dealerships again. I have never owned such a rolling piece of garbage in my life. It handled and accelerated nicely, but it was built with a level of quality that was one step below a Yugo. Maybe two steps.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#12 Ari

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 926 posts

Posted 22 September 2015 - 12:57 PM

Probably a good time to buy VW stock.

#13 drdredel

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2418 posts

Posted 22 September 2015 - 01:16 PM

 LFC, on 22 September 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

I'd also like to say that after my last experience owning a VW Golf in the early 2000s, I would never even set foot in one of their dealerships again. I have never owned such a rolling piece of garbage in my life. It handled and accelerated nicely, but it was built with a level of quality that was one step below a Yugo. Maybe two steps.

Couldn't disagree more (obviously just my 2 kopeks) but we own a 2002 diesel golf and that car is by far the most reliable and fuel efficient car I've ever owned. We also own a 2008 VW Beetle and a 2011 Routan. All really great cars that have not given us any trouble beyond what one expects from cars of various ages and mileage. I'm sorry you guys had a crappy experience, but I don't think VW has a reputation for shoddy craftsmanship - and that's not been my experience at all.

I'm extremely sad that they did this - for one thing, the re-sale value of all my cars just dropped by 1/2 (or more, I'm guessing)... I think VW owes me that money now!
The Blind have lost their sense of "sight";
The Deaf have lost their sense of "hearing";
Republicans have lost their sense of "common".

#14 Probabilistic

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2129 posts

Posted 22 September 2015 - 01:23 PM

 drdredel, on 22 September 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

"what were we supposed to expect from a company started by Hitler??"

beemer envy

#15 Practical Girl

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 8119 posts
  • LocationAustin TX

Posted 22 September 2015 - 01:31 PM

 LFC, on 22 September 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

In addition to the massive fines they deserve, I hope that the Feds pin the cost of retrofitting every impacted vehicle in the country back on VW with the threat that if they refuse, all of their vehicles will be banned for sale in the U.S.

Except for the ban, this is the very definition of a recall.
Every woman needs a blowtorch.
---Julia Child


--- On September 17, 1787, as Benjamin Franklin was leaving the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention, at Independence Hall, in Philadelphia, a woman called out to him, saying, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?”
“A republic,” Franklin said, “if you can keep it.”


--- LFC, on Gorsuch ruling: "Awesome. A Christianist who swore an oath to uphold the laws of the nation and bore false witness when he did it"

--- "Write hard and clear about what hurts"
Ernest Hemingway

#16 AnBr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13060 posts

Posted 22 September 2015 - 02:45 PM

Does this fit the topic? http://www.talkradio...let-in-one-day/

Perhaps more CEO malfeasance but: http://www.talkradio...post__p__106325
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#17 drdredel

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2418 posts

Posted 22 September 2015 - 02:58 PM

https://twitter.com/...412737338286081

Quote

VW CEO Martin Winterkorn promises that in fine company tradition, he and his wife will commit ritual suicide by cyanide immediately.

The Blind have lost their sense of "sight";
The Deaf have lost their sense of "hearing";
Republicans have lost their sense of "common".

#18 AnBr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13060 posts

Posted 22 September 2015 - 03:20 PM

Do they have the bunker ready?
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#19 drdredel

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2418 posts

Posted 22 September 2015 - 03:30 PM

 AnBr, on 22 September 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

Do they have the bunker ready?

Well, they thought it was ready, but it turns out that the ventilation system leaves 85% of the carbon dioxide unventilated when it's not being tested.
The Blind have lost their sense of "sight";
The Deaf have lost their sense of "hearing";
Republicans have lost their sense of "common".

#20 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 28142 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 22 September 2015 - 04:22 PM

 drdredel, on 22 September 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

Couldn't disagree more (obviously just my 2 kopeks) ...

Mine was made in a ridiculously shoddy manner. Here are the main problems I remember.
  • Had to be repainted within a year as the whole paint job became splotchy.
  • A rust spot appeared on the hatch that had to be sanded and painted when the paint bubbled. Had to fight to get them to do it.
  • Body side molding fell off. It was held on by double stick tape. (I shit you not.)
  • Brake job required in 25,000 miles. Car ready for another when I dumped it at a just under 50,000 miles which is less than two years for me. I was told that this was normal.
  • Brake design and material caused the front hubcaps to get covered in black metallic dust.
  • Clutch already slipping and needing replacement when I dumped it at just under 50,000 miles.
  • Various switches and plastic pieces inside broke or just fell off.
I've probably missed something but those were the majors. Additionally, my sister's mother-in-law had a diesel Jetta in the late-2000s. Total piece of junk with constant problems. She dumped it, bought a Mazda, and never looked back.

I haven't looked at VWs in Consumer Reports as of late but for a long time they were worse than average in reliability in just about every system. It would be a good thing if VW has gotten its shit together but now that I've experienced the quality of Honda, Toyota, and Subaru, I suspect they've lost me as a customer for life.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users