Jump to content


Measles Outbreak Casts Spotlight on Anti-Vaxxers


827 replies to this topic

#1 AnBr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13604 posts

Posted 22 January 2015 - 08:35 PM

http://abcnews.go.co...-cases-28395525
“Trump’s a stupid man’s idea of a smart person, a poor man’s idea of a rich person & a weak man’s idea of a strong man.”

— Fran Lebowitz


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

— Carl Sagan


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#2 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 30519 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 22 January 2015 - 09:05 PM

If any child dies from this (god forbid), the blame needs to be placed squarely on the anti-vax crowd. You supported the position? Then you own the outcomes.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#3 Bact PhD

    Frustrated, Thoughtful Independent

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1894 posts
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 23 January 2015 - 01:11 PM

The only thing I would feel bad for is if the infant who was unvaccinated because he/she wasn't old enough to be vaccinated, but the parents planned to do that at the appropriate time, is the one that dies from measles. Neither the child not its parents had any ownership in that position.

One of the benefits of mass vaccination is what's called "herd immunity," i.e, enough are vaccinated such that the bacterium/virus cannot get a foothold in the population, meaning it cannot spread to those relative few who cannot receive the vaccine or in whom the vaccine was ineffective. Sadly, there are enough anti-vaxxers out there that the principle no longer applies in (too many!) places. SMH
Politics these days is show business. Elections are Dancing with the Stars with consequences. ~Rue Bella

(About fame) Living for likes, shares and follows is a form of validation. The question is whether it is also the source of our self esteem. If it is, we’re screwed. And, culturally, it seems as if it’s become more and more our shared value. ... Meringue is no longer a sweet and pretty topping but the body itself. ~Charles Perez

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816. ME 14:384, via LFC, 12/1/2016

Competent people go in one of a few directions. But incompetence is infinite. ~David Brooks, NY Times

#4 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 30519 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 23 January 2015 - 01:31 PM

To me, this is a classic case of "your rights end where somebody else's begins." You have no right to endanger others because you can't grasp the science. I have no problem with required vaccinations, or at the very least being barred from public school without them. The needs of the many outweigh the (ignorant) desires of the few.

This is just one more case of America turning its back on science. We went through this in varying degrees with the DDT, creationsim, climate change, and now this. We now have a nation where a totally unfounded position of ignorance is given the same footing as a well founded position of knowledge. The media is to blame for this in a pretty large part. In the case of the right-wing media, that's a feature. In the case the the mainstream media, it's a casualty.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#5 Bact PhD

    Frustrated, Thoughtful Independent

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1894 posts
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 23 January 2015 - 01:45 PM

View PostLFC, on 23 January 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

To me, this is a classic case of "your rights end where somebody else's begins." You have no right to endanger others because you can't grasp the science. I have no problem with required vaccinations, or at the very least being barred from public school without them. The needs of the many outweigh the (ignorant) desires of the few.

This is just one more case of America turning its back on science. .... We now have a nation where a totally unfounded position of ignorance is given the same footing as a well founded position of knowledge.

And, in some cases, even more. Who needs facts when you have beliefs, right??

Quote

The media is to blame for this in a pretty large part. In the case of the right-wing media, that's a feature. In the case the the mainstream media, it's a casualty.

Sad, but true. And Social media just reinforces the individual's set of biases even further.
Politics these days is show business. Elections are Dancing with the Stars with consequences. ~Rue Bella

(About fame) Living for likes, shares and follows is a form of validation. The question is whether it is also the source of our self esteem. If it is, we’re screwed. And, culturally, it seems as if it’s become more and more our shared value. ... Meringue is no longer a sweet and pretty topping but the body itself. ~Charles Perez

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816. ME 14:384, via LFC, 12/1/2016

Competent people go in one of a few directions. But incompetence is infinite. ~David Brooks, NY Times

#6 AnBr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13604 posts

Posted 23 January 2015 - 02:06 PM

View PostLFC, on 23 January 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

To me, this is a classic case of "your rights end where somebody else's begins." You have no right to endanger others because you can't grasp the science. I have no problem with required vaccinations, or at the very least being barred from public school without them. The needs of the many outweigh the (ignorant) desires of the few.

This is just one more case of America turning its back on science. We went through this in varying degrees with the DDT, creationsim, climate change, and now this. We now have a nation where a totally unfounded position of ignorance is given the same footing as a well founded position of knowledge. The media is to blame for this in a pretty large part. In the case of the right-wing media, that's a feature. In the case the the mainstream media, it's a casualty.

Quote

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

Isaac Asimov/My Turn - Newsweek Jan. 1, 1980
“Trump’s a stupid man’s idea of a smart person, a poor man’s idea of a rich person & a weak man’s idea of a strong man.”

— Fran Lebowitz


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

— Carl Sagan


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#7 Bact PhD

    Frustrated, Thoughtful Independent

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1894 posts
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 23 January 2015 - 04:43 PM

Aaaaand, The Onion has weighed in:

http://www.theonion....right-to,37839/

Quote

I am by no means telling mothers and fathers out there what to do; I’m simply standing up for every parent’s right to make his or her own decision. You may choose to follow the government-recommended immunization schedule for your child, and that’s your decision as a parent. And I might choose to unleash rubella on thousands upon thousands of helpless people, and that’s my decision as a parent.

A very tongue-in-cheek way of making the point "I'm an anti-vaxxer, and my rights supersede your rights, and that's what freedumb is all about!"
Politics these days is show business. Elections are Dancing with the Stars with consequences. ~Rue Bella

(About fame) Living for likes, shares and follows is a form of validation. The question is whether it is also the source of our self esteem. If it is, we’re screwed. And, culturally, it seems as if it’s become more and more our shared value. ... Meringue is no longer a sweet and pretty topping but the body itself. ~Charles Perez

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816. ME 14:384, via LFC, 12/1/2016

Competent people go in one of a few directions. But incompetence is infinite. ~David Brooks, NY Times

#8 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 30519 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 23 January 2015 - 05:08 PM

View PostBact PhD, on 23 January 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

One of the benefits of mass vaccination is what's called "herd immunity," i.e, enough are vaccinated such that the bacterium/virus cannot get a foothold in the population, meaning it cannot spread to those relative few who cannot receive the vaccine or in whom the vaccine was ineffective. Sadly, there are enough anti-vaxxers out there that the principle no longer applies in (too many!) places. SMH

I read the article a little closer, and a top cheerleader for bringing back childhood diseases (cuz' let's face it, that's what's happening) make this staggeringly stupid statement that shows her total ignorance of that concept (bold mine):

Quote

Barbara Loe Fisher, director of the National Vaccine Information Center, a Virginia-based nonprofit that favors letting parents decide whether to vaccinate, said, "I don't think it's wise or responsible to blame" unvaccinated people for the Disney outbreak. She noted that a small number of those stricken had been fully vaccinated.

And I love how groups that completely ignore overwhelming data to grasp straws are called things like "the National Vaccine Information Center."
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#9 Progressive whisperer

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10233 posts

Posted 23 January 2015 - 05:15 PM

View PostLFC, on 23 January 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:



I read the article a little closer, and a top cheerleader for bringing back childhood diseases (cuz' let's face it, that's what's happening) make this staggeringly stupid statement that shows her total ignorance of that concept (bold mine):



And I love how groups that completely ignore overwhelming data to grasp straws are called things like "the National Vaccine Information Center."

Orwell would be so proud. Except here it isn't the government using newspeak, or even business but grass roots idiots adopting the idea.

Well, maybe the idiots think they really ARE providing information. They are, after all, idiots.
Trump delenda est.
GOP delenda est.
Resist!

#10 drdredel

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2419 posts

Posted 23 January 2015 - 07:31 PM

I, having previously been in that camp, can only say that for me the problem was that signal/noise ratio for factually reliable information was high enough that I chose to err on the side of inaction. I don't trust the CDC (and given their recent incompetence relating to Ebola that doubt seems reasonable) and while this may be entirely illogical, the recent revelations over at the CIA cast doubt on the entire government, top to bottom. So... what organ of information does one turn to when one has lost faith in the government for doing its honest due diligence and delivering untainted analysis to the public?

I get it... the science is *now overwhelming and the crackpottery of the doubters is pretty evident. But in the 90s that wasn't at all true.

Anway... as a perfect example of another issue that is now on the fore in a VERY similar way, consider GMOs. Our government insists that they're 100% safe. Ooodles of other respectable organs of research contradict that position from "we just don't know" to "they're actually quite dangerous".

I'm sure a lot of people are going to starve to death while this debate is raging... but the fact is that people who we rely on to tell us the truth treat us like children and refuse to share the facts with us. Why is it so hard to understand that these events contaminate one another and that a government that lies about *THIS can easily be suspected of also lying about *THAT (fill in whatever substitutions make you happy).

I promise you that no one wants to bring back measles! This entire issue is about trust.

And the "logic" in people's heads goes like this:

measles are "natural" while vaccines are "artificial". We know exactly how measles works (and how often it kills people) while we are in a state of deluded confusion over the long term effects of vaccines - especially in combination with other vaccines and other environmental triggers. Given that it's our children's lives that we're negotiating this over, we'll just go ahead and go the "natural" route.

I'm not saying this is empirically defensible, however it's entirely anecdotally rational and stems from the same exact impulse that spurs people to start sentences with "back in MY day we didn't have no stinkin'.... and LOOK, we turned out FINE!".
The Blind have lost their sense of "sight";
The Deaf have lost their sense of "hearing";
Republicans have lost their sense of "common".

#11 Traveler

    Rambling Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13331 posts
  • LocationPhilly Area

Posted 23 January 2015 - 10:38 PM

drd, I admire your turn of perspective. And I also concur that GMO crops have potential implications that are no doubt potentially adverse. It has to be balanced against the benefits. If the adverse issues are manageable, then fine. Lets deal with it. But we dont know enough, IMO. J-CA has some pretty good takes on that.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#12 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 30519 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 24 January 2015 - 04:51 PM

View Postdrdredel, on 23 January 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

I, having previously been in that camp, can only say that for me the problem was that signal/noise ratio for factually reliable information was high enough that I chose to err on the side of inaction. I don't trust the CDC (and given their recent incompetence relating to Ebola that doubt seems reasonable) and while this may be entirely illogical, the recent revelations over at the CIA cast doubt on the entire government, top to bottom. So... what organ of information does one turn to when one has lost faith in the government for doing its honest due diligence and delivering untainted analysis to the public?

This is what happens when you have a strictly America-centric view of the world. There has been good information on the effectiveness of vaccines coming out of country after country for decades, so the argument about the CDC, CIA, or any other U.S. gov't organization falls flat. Ditto for global warming. It makes no sense that scientists from dozens of nations including Russia, China, Japan, Brazil, European nations, African nations, etc. are all "in cahootz". It really drives me nuts when an issue that has globally produced evidence gets narrowed down to just America, as if no other nation had scientists.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#13 drdredel

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2419 posts

Posted 24 January 2015 - 05:45 PM

View PostLFC, on 24 January 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

This is what happens when you have a strictly America-centric view of the world. There has been good information on the effectiveness of vaccines coming out of country after country for decades, so the argument about the CDC, CIA, or any other U.S. gov't organization falls flat. Ditto for global warming. It makes no sense that scientists from dozens of nations including Russia, China, Japan, Brazil, European nations, African nations, etc. are all "in cahootz". It really drives me nuts when an issue that has globally produced evidence gets narrowed down to just America, as if no other nation had scientists.

I disagree... this is precisely the *non America centric view. This was my point about the CDC and GMOs. If I had faith in our government's ability (desire) to be honest with me and not to do things at the behest of Monsanto (or pfizer) I'd just take them at their word. But I don't trust them at all (and believe I have good reason not to). And it's hard for me to wind the clock back to 1996 for you to show you exactly what kind of information was available and what my thought process was at the time, but I promise you that it was quite empirical and rational (as I generally have always tried to be).

You're not going to find a lot of people who're going to be willing to put their children's lives (or even well-being) on the line, on the "word" of the U.S. government alone. It takes a lot of international (and non governmental) consensus for something like that.
The Blind have lost their sense of "sight";
The Deaf have lost their sense of "hearing";
Republicans have lost their sense of "common".

#14 AnBr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13604 posts

Posted 24 January 2015 - 09:22 PM

It is not the same as taking the government's word about something like the NSA. As LFC points out, this is data from all over the world for many decades. And it comes from many prominent doctors and scientists. Vaccines have nearly eradicated some of mankind's worst diseases. The anti-vaxxers are threatening to undo all of that progress. It is understandable that a parent wants to be cautious when it comes to their children, but it is also up to the parents learn the facts. I am not trying suggest anything about you or cast aspersions on you, but the consequences go far beyond just the anti-vaxxers and their families.
“Trump’s a stupid man’s idea of a smart person, a poor man’s idea of a rich person & a weak man’s idea of a strong man.”

— Fran Lebowitz


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

— Carl Sagan


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#15 nuser

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1103 posts

Posted 24 January 2015 - 10:50 PM

Have tried to get statistics on fully measles vaccinated
Americans who contracted it nevertheless . Excuses
evasions, and we don't know. Babies inherit antibodies
from mothers , that boosts their immune system against
measles mumps and rubella , but starts to wean around
12 months . So much for killing babies. Five people in Disneyland
were fully vaccinated and yet fell prey to measles, and
that is a lot out of 74 . We are NOT anti -vaccine , but we are against
finger pointing.

#16 drdredel

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2419 posts

Posted 24 January 2015 - 11:04 PM

View PostAnBr, on 24 January 2015 - 09:22 PM, said:

but it is also up to the parents learn the facts.

I'm not sure if you read what I said above... I urge you to travel to 1996 in a time machine and then go ahead and arm yourself with "the facts".

At that time there was a substantial (multinational) concern about mercury being used as a preservative in many vaccines (and the unknown effects it might have - none positive, I'm sure), as well as concern about the stuff in the polio vaccine being culture in monkey livers (or some such) and on and on, and the internet was a terrific place to learn absolutely nothing.

It's a little better today (though not much) and one *could get through most of the noise and get at the actual statistics, but unlike me most people get some idea in their head and they stick with it - for ever. If someone took the time in 1996 to figure out vaccines are potentially dangerous, that's going to be their opinion until someone drops a piano on their head.

Anyway... I'm not arguing against vaccines. I'm explaining to you how decent, "rational", well meaning people come to this point of view and why it's so hard to change their mind. The best way to convince someone of something is to first convince them that you understand their POV and can sympathize, because then you have some credibility as to why they should re-consider.
The Blind have lost their sense of "sight";
The Deaf have lost their sense of "hearing";
Republicans have lost their sense of "common".

#17 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 30519 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 25 January 2015 - 11:02 AM

View Postnuser, on 24 January 2015 - 10:50 PM, said:

Five people in Disneyland were fully vaccinated and yet fell prey to measles, and
that is a lot out of 74 .

Please look up "herd immunity" as posted by Bact PhD. Vaccines don't need to be 100% effective at the individual level to be at or near 100% effective at the population level. This kind of statement is the worst type of misinformation that can be thrown into this discussion debate denial which I pointed out in #8. Actually anybody pointing to this as evidence about the effectiveness of population level immunization knows too little about the topic to even be talking.

View Postnuser, on 24 January 2015 - 10:50 PM, said:

We are NOT anti -vaccine , but we are against finger pointing.

If you believe the above statement you made has any validity in the discussion of immunizing a population, I can understand why you're against finger pointing. The fingers are being pointed at the anti-vaccine crowd because they are wrong, wrong, wrong and the data (i.e. sickened people) show it, just as the data overwhelmingly shows the benefits of vaccines. Not having your child vaccinated is a decision based on ignorance, superstition, emotion, and "what ifs". It's not based on sound logic and data.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#18 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 30519 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 25 January 2015 - 11:27 AM

View Postnuser, on 24 January 2015 - 10:50 PM, said:

Babies inherit antibodies from mothers , that boosts their immune system against measles mumps and rubella , but starts to wean around 12 months . So much for killing babies.

Six of those infected were too young to be vaccinated, so your assertion falls completely flat. So yes, I'm pointing fingers. I'm pointing ALL of my fingers.

Quote

The patients in California range in age between seven months and 70 years, and at least 28 of them were unvaccinated. But that wasn’t all by choice: Six are infants who are too young to receive the shot. The first dose of the MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) vaccine is typically given to children 12 months or older, with the second dose administered before they start kindergarten around age five.

Posted Image
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#19 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 30519 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 25 January 2015 - 11:32 AM

And finally, this presentation by Penn & Teller.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#20 AnBr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13604 posts

Posted 25 January 2015 - 12:19 PM

The anti-vaxxer movement began as a scam by Andrew Wakefield.

Quote

Andrew Wakefield, the author of the original research paper, had multiple undeclared conflicts of interest,[2][3] had manipulated evidence,[4] and had broken other ethical codes.

And a 2011 medical journal called the vaccine–autism connection as "the most damaging medical hoax of the last 100 years".

https://en.wikipedia...ine_controversy

The really sad thing is that the parents that chose to not vaccinate their children have left their children vulnerable for life. As serious as these diseases are for children, contracting them as adults is even more serious. So not only have they endangered the population at large, they are endangering their children potentially for life.
“Trump’s a stupid man’s idea of a smart person, a poor man’s idea of a rich person & a weak man’s idea of a strong man.”

— Fran Lebowitz


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

— Carl Sagan


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users