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Why are conservatives afraid of Neil deGrasse Tyson


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#41 Progressive whisperer

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 01:30 PM

View Postdrdredel, on 05 August 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:



If there was any part of my comment that implied that we're not giving them the benefit of the doubt or failing to be generous enough in our consideration of their "positions" I would like to clarify that I my assessment is actually being made totally straight faced. They are indeed an enigma. I don't understand how they got to where they are.

You don't have to look far back on American History to find hatred and fear of immigrants or calls to venerate the wealthy. Disregard for knowledge and education go back pretty far too. Most of us grew up hearing about the melting pot and the wonders of science, but not everyone bought into that. The joining of Republican pro-wealth and business sector with Southern\working class racism and evengelical Christianity brought all that undercurrent into the open, and gave it a unified power it never had before. So thank the guys who created the "southern strategy" for the GOP, as they set this toxic cauldron bubbling.
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#42 Sinan

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:03 PM

View Postdrdredel, on 05 August 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

If there was any part of my comment that implied that we're not giving them the benefit of the doubt or failing to be generous enough in our consideration of their "positions" I would like to clarify that I my assessment is actually being made totally straight faced. They are indeed an enigma. I don't understand how they got to where they are.

I think you have to break them into a couple blocks to understand them. First block are the well educated folks who actually believe in the Chicago or Austrian schools of economics. That is what drives this block of conservatives mostly. Sure, they talk about defense and God but they are really focused on economics. These folks are smart, articulate and convinced that their style of economic ideology is best for them and accidentally for everyone else. The second group are folks that are occasional consumers of history, news, politics and economics. This group is dominated by the Christian element with a large portion of them concerned about race. That does not mean they are racists, it only means they see America through racial lenses. This last group used to be Democrats but through sneaky anti-union rhetoric given to them by Ronnie, they started to look at unions as groups that took money from others to line the pockets of do nothing slackers. Same thing with taxes. When you combine Jesus, the preacher they go to on Sunday and race politics, you have a block that is not going to move unless a catastrophe hits. Even then, that will reinforce their bias and make them point fingers just as they did with the Catholics, Irish, Italians, Chinese and so on.
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#43 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:10 PM

View PostProgressive whisperer, on 05 August 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

So thank the guys who created the "southern strategy" for the GOP, as they set this toxic cauldron bubbling.

Thank Lyndon Johnson. He knew at the time that the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act would have this effect, and said so.

Sure, the Republicans took the bait. Turning down the chance to put together a coalition that would rule the USA for two generations (min, counting)? No political animal with a working brain could possibly have resisted.

Was the bait poisoned? I guess we'll find out.
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#44 Traveler

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:17 PM

Seems to have had a chronic debilitating effect as noted at length. But the Overton window has shifted so far they ought to be gleeful.
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#45 Progressive whisperer

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:23 PM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 05 August 2014 - 02:10 PM, said:



Thank Lyndon Johnson. He knew at the time that the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act would have this effect, and said so.

Sure, the Republicans took the bait. Turning down the chance to put together a coalition that would rule the USA for two generations (min, counting)? No political animal with a working brain could possibly have resisted.

Was the bait poisoned? I guess we'll find out.

So, continue tolerating Jim Crow, with lynching as the enforcement, forever, or what we have now? Hobeson's choice to be sure. Or do we blame Lincoln for picking Andrew Johnson as his VP, thus weakening reconstruction? Not that Lincoln wanted a muscular reconstruction to eradicate the slave holders.

Maybe that takes us to the "original sin" of the founders in permitting slavery in their shiney new republic?
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#46 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:59 PM

View PostProgressive whisperer, on 05 August 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

Maybe that takes us to the "original sin" of the founders in permitting slavery in their shiney new republic?

When the alternative was the Articles of Confederation, with each of the Colonies too weak to deal with a resurgent European interest in North America?

Hobson's Choice, indeed. Although to be fair, nobody that I know of complained about the quality of Hobson's horses, just that they took the one offered or none at all.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#47 LFC

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 03:12 PM

Quote

Why are conservatives afraid of Neil deGrasse Tyson?

To distill it down to one word, "uppity".
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#48 Traveler

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 03:25 PM

And smart. Although by no means always right.
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#49 Practical Girl

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 04:04 PM

View PostTraveler, on 05 August 2014 - 03:25 PM, said:

And smart. Although by no means always right.

In what sense- science, politics etc ? Just curious. I'm not his daughter or anything...
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#50 Progressive whisperer

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 04:05 PM

View PostLFC, on 05 August 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:



To distill it down to one word, "uppity".

That's only part of it, their rejection if "facts" of any sort is really rather color blind, as is the willingness to attack anyone saying things that contradict their preferences. The old saw about being welcome to your own opinion but not your own facts is out of bounds with these people.

Remember also the studies that showed people with firm belief in certain ideas become more entrenched when shown evidence that contradicted them?
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#51 AnBr

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 06:10 PM

You mean Daniel Patrick Moynihan's quote:

Quote

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.

http://en.wikipedia....Moynihan#Quotes
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#52 Traveler

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 07:36 AM

View PostPractical Girl, on 05 August 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

In what sense- science, politics etc ? Just curious. I'm not his daughter or anything...

He is an unabashed GMO supporter for one thing. As discussed at length here, GMO is not entirely a good thing. So not a major beef, but a beef nonetheless. There was another perspective of his that also had me perplexed but I cannot recall it.
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#53 Traveler

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 08:10 AM

Interesting article about the side effects of GMO, most of which are political IMO.

Quote

The concerns are multiple. Roundup-ready crops – soybeans, corn, canola, sugar beets, cotton and alfalfa – have been manipulated to be resistant to glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup.

Some argue that glyphosate poses a risk to human and animal health, a claim that Monsanto and other agribusinesses reject.
In addition to health risks, environmental damage to soil, water and bee colonies – which are dwindling fast – have been attributed glyphosate use, threatening food and water security across the globe.
Glyphosate risk is bullshit from what I gather. Its less toxic than table salt. The effect of bee colonies is likely due to nicotinamides, not glyphosate

Quote

GM crops could devastate the important European export market for Mexican beekeepers, where the sale of honey containing pollen derived from GM crops has been restricted since a landmark decision in 2011 by the European court of justice.

The ruling barred honey derived from a GM crop unapproved for human consumption – which includes some soy and other animal feeds – from sale in the EU. Honey with more than 0.9% of GM pollen (from an approved GM food) must be labelled as containing GM ingredients and cannot be marketed as an organic product. Some countries, including Germany, reject honey that contains any GM pollen.
Even more hysteria, especially since honey is nothing but bee puke. Like its gonna have some sort of insidious effect on folks. This is of course what Neil is talking about.

Shame, because its an important issue, yet the hard science is totally ignored.
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#54 LFC

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 08:34 AM

View PostTraveler, on 08 August 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

Shame, because its an important issue, yet the hard science is totally ignored.

C'mon. That never happens. After all, look at climate, evolution, vaccines, ... Uh, never mind.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#55 J-CA

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 09:01 AM

View PostTraveler, on 08 August 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

Glyphosate risk is bullshit from what I gather. Its less toxic than table salt. The effect of bee colonies is likely due to nicotinamides, not glyphosate
A lot of respectable people believe that monoculture is a factor in colony collapse and RR products are a big part of that trend.
Glyphosate is certainly more toxic than table salt, but as far as agricultural chemicals go it is extremely safe but there is still conflicting evidence regarding how carcinogenic it is. A regulatory problem with it is that non-active ingredient (adjuvants) interactions need not be well-studied before approval for use.
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#56 Traveler

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 09:47 AM

View PostJ-CA, on 08 August 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

A lot of respectable people believe that monoculture is a factor in colony collapse and RR products are a big part of that trend.
Glyphosate is certainly more toxic than table salt, but as far as agricultural chemicals go it is extremely safe but there is still conflicting evidence regarding how carcinogenic it is. A regulatory problem with it is that non-active ingredient (adjuvants) interactions need not be well-studied before approval for use.
Well I cannot disagree with most of your points, but back when I was in the restoration field 20 years ago, the literature showed the LC50 was ~5000mg/kg, which is apparently similar to table salt. I am sure that knowledge base has evolved but haven't read recent MDSS. The surfactant adjuvants are definitely far worse, which is you need Rodeo ™ around waterbodies.

I agree its a landscape/IPM issue, not toxicity per se. Which is why I found the EU's hysteria so overblown, and nothing but naked protectionism.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
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#57 J-CA

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 10:08 AM

I think we probably are mostly in a agreement on all points.

I may be mistaken but LC50 doesn't tell you much about how likely you are to die of cancer 5 years later.

As long as consumers are concerned about GMOs protectionism with respect to them is justified because it is a marketing issue with potential economic impacts, whether consumer concerns are well-founded is a separate issue to my mind.
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#58 Traveler

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 10:22 AM

True dat. All of it. There are some pretty interesting findings on the cancer issues. Don't look so innocuous after all....
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire





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