Jump to content


The All Things Global Warming / Climate Change / Climate Disruption Thread


2089 replies to this topic

#41 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 27020 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 10 June 2014 - 10:45 AM

Posted Image
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#42 J-CA

    Probably in one of my drunken stupors..

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4656 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 10:49 AM

I have always wondered if there is anything better for overall employment than shutting down coal plants? No matter what you replace them with it seems like it should be more labour intensive in some way. A decentralized solution means lots of small installations and centralized solutions means large infrastructure projects, at least the size of building new coal plants anyway.
I think coal is worth around 800K jobs in the US economy (about 40% of mining is coal and mining employment in the US is about 2 million jobs). There are already over 1/2 million Americans working in the solar panel business. The question, to me, is how to get the new jobs to the places where the old jobs were?
I am the burrito until someone hands me to a philosopher.

#43 J-CA

    Probably in one of my drunken stupors..

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4656 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 10:50 AM

Clint is actually pointing that thing at an empty chair.
I am the burrito until someone hands me to a philosopher.

#44 indy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9089 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:40 AM

View PostJ-CA, on 10 June 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

I have always wondered if there is anything better for overall employment than shutting down coal plants? No matter what you replace them with it seems like it should be more labour intensive in some way. A decentralized solution means lots of small installations and centralized solutions means large infrastructure projects, at least the size of building new coal plants anyway.
I think coal is worth around 800K jobs in the US economy (about 40% of mining is coal and mining employment in the US is about 2 million jobs). There are already over 1/2 million Americans working in the solar panel business. The question, to me, is how to get the new jobs to the places where the old jobs were?


Krugman recently pointed out that coal employment has been going down for some time due, at least in part, to automation. This is, according to Krugman, total employment in coal mining:

Posted Image

#45 J-CA

    Probably in one of my drunken stupors..

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4656 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:54 AM

Sure makes my 800k estimate look good! ;)
Another industry where capital and technology are combined to eliminate a lot of the labour.
I rarely read Krugman anymore but things always seem to point out to me what I miss by not reading it, but I still don't for some reason.
I am the burrito until someone hands me to a philosopher.

#46 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 27020 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:08 PM

View Postindy, on 10 June 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Krugman recently pointed out that coal employment has been going down for some time due, at least in part, to automation. This is, according to Krugman, total employment in coal mining:

I believe he said that this was people directly employed in mining coal, and that he made a clear caveat that it didn't include all related jobs. Still, it's been dropping as less companies and households want to deal with coal as a fuel.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#47 Progressive whisperer

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10233 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:16 PM

View PostLFC, on 10 June 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:



I believe he said that this was people directly employed in mining coal, and that he made a clear caveat that it didn't include all related jobs. Still, it's been dropping as less companies and households want to deal with coal as a fuel.

LGM has a post on the same Krugman piece. The decline appears to be more about strip mining and automation than decline of use (most coal going to large power plants, home use dropped rapidly in the 1950-60 era).

http://www.lawyersgu...ar-coal-workers
Trump delenda est.
GOP delenda est.
Resist!

#48 indy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9089 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:25 PM

That's why I was careful to say 'total employment in coal mining' because that's the way Krugman put it.

However, you can also see the all employees graph from fred whch seems the same as Krugmans.

Posted Image

#49 indy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9089 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:33 PM

It took a few minutes to locate, but you can find a breakdown of employees by function type here: http://www.bls.gov/o...cs4_212100.htm The 80K includes all the peripheral functions (management, equipment operators, security guards, even the transportation aspects). Obviously it does not include the power generation jobs at coal fired plants, but since that energy will still be required, those jobs would shift across technologies, more or less.

#50 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 27020 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 10 June 2014 - 04:37 PM

Crap on a stick, that is a small number of jobs. Of course the right-wingnuts want to save these jobs, which is ironic because they were more than willing to let the entire U.S. auto industry collapse.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#51 Progressive whisperer

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10233 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 04:42 PM

View PostLFC, on 10 June 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:

Crap on a stick, that is a small number of jobs. Of course the right-wingnuts want to save these jobs, which is ironic because they were more than willing to let the entire U.S. auto industry collapse.

Not to mention all the state level jobs when they wouldn't continue the stimulus - but of course, government jobs (teacher, highway maintenance, etc) aren't real jobs in their reckoning.
Trump delenda est.
GOP delenda est.
Resist!

#52 Traveler

    Rambling Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 12905 posts
  • LocationPhilly Area

Posted 10 June 2014 - 04:48 PM

Heck its at least 10 times what Keystone XL would generate, so give 'em a break. What is 80k, about 12 days of current job creation?
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#53 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 27020 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 10 June 2014 - 04:51 PM

View PostProgressive whisperer, on 10 June 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

Not to mention all the state level jobs when they wouldn't continue the stimulus - but of course, government jobs (teacher, highway maintenance, etc) aren't real jobs in their reckoning.

Yepper. All recent past recoveries included an increase in public sector jobs. ONLY this one saw them crash. But

Posted Image
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#54 Traveler

    Rambling Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 12905 posts
  • LocationPhilly Area

Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:08 PM

How the heck do you think he was able to reduce the deficit? Note that most of this job loss was in the states. The Feds just quit expanding. Would be useful to tease that out.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#55 indy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9089 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:15 PM

FRED to the rescue:

Posted Image

#56 Traveler

    Rambling Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 12905 posts
  • LocationPhilly Area

Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:24 PM

So outside of the census bump, we see attrition, but no new positions.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#57 indy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9089 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:33 PM

Well, really it is kind of astonishing if you look at a longer time frame:

Posted Image

There were more federal employees in 1970 than now. US population in 1970 was 200 million and now it is 313 million. Technology explains a lot, but all of it?

#58 Progressive whisperer

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10233 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:33 PM

View PostTraveler, on 10 June 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

So outside of the census bump, we see attrition, but no new positions.

Yup, government can't creat jobs - we made sure of it!
Trump delenda est.
GOP delenda est.
Resist!

#59 indy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9089 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:42 PM

View PostProgressive whisperer, on 10 June 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

Yup, government can't creat jobs - we made sure of it!

Notice the biggest decrease is during Clinton and Obama admins. This is how know your memes are successful: when the opponents are so concerned with having them used against them that they cave. This is a two-fur for Republicans. Decreased federal employment also means decreased services, which you can then blame on poor administration.

#60 J-CA

    Probably in one of my drunken stupors..

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4656 posts

Posted 10 June 2014 - 07:24 PM

This is the climate change topic, right? ;)
I am the burrito until someone hands me to a philosopher.





6 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 6 guests, 0 anonymous users