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The All Things Global Warming / Climate Change / Climate Disruption Thread


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#2421 golden_valley

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 11:27 AM

So Dems have Greta...now Reps have Naomi! She's 19 (older than Greta!) and German (not from some podunk Socialist country) and she's hired by the Heartland Institute to denounce climate alarmism. It's just so puerile. "You've got a girl? Well so do we, so there!"

#2422 LFC

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Posted 24 February 2020 - 01:16 PM

The recent warming event in the Antarctic produced some unprecedented melting. And these kinds of events are getting more common.

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A weeklong bout of record warm temperatures sweeping Antarctica has caused widespread melting on the southern continent’s glaciers, resulting in the loss of about one-fifth of regional snow accumulation in just one event.

Earlier this month, the icy continent set two records for the hottest temperature ever documented on land in Antarctica, the highest being a comfortable spring-like air temperature of 20.75°C (69.35°F) followed closely by a February 6 recording of 18.3°C (64.9°F) – or around the same temperature as Los Angeles that day. The announcement came just three days after satellite observations captured the Pine Island Glacier breaking into smaller pieces – playfully nicknamed “piglets” – before heading out to sea.

“I haven’t seen melt ponds develop this quickly in Antarctica. You see these kinds of melt events in Alaska and Greenland, but not usually in Antarctica,” said Mauri Pelto, a glaciologist at Nichols College, in a statement. Widespread surface melting was also observed by Pelto on the nearby Boydell Glacier.

Images taken by the Operational Land Imager (OLI) on Landsat 8 on February 4 and again nine days later show Eagle Island's 1.5 square kilometers (nearly 1 square mile) of snowpack saturated with meltwater (blue circles below). Climate models suggest that the area saw a peak melt of 30 millimeters (1.2 inches) on February 6. In total, Eagle Island lost 106 millimeters (4.2 inches) of ice during the warm spell.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#2423 AnBr

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Posted 25 February 2020 - 09:41 AM

Posted Image
“Trump’s a stupid man’s idea of a smart person, a poor man’s idea of a rich person & a weak man’s idea of a strong man.”

— Fran Lebowitz


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

— Carl Sagan


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#2424 LFC

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Posted 25 February 2020 - 03:31 PM

Globlal warming is changing the flood insurance landscape for homeowners. It's going to hit a lot of people hard who built under old standards.

Quote

When Hurricane Sandy hit in 2012, Thalia Panton watched in disbelief as floodwaters careened down her quiet, tree-lined street in Canarsie, Brooklyn. Sparks flew from downed electrical lines as the rapids rose past her thighs.

The water receded as quickly as it appeared. But the damage was done. When the skies cleared, Panton was left with $60,000 in losses. The basement had flooded, damaging musical instruments her husband and son use for their gigs as well as electrical equipment that kept the house running. Panton and her neighbors didn’t get flood insurance until after Sandy because Canarsie wasn’t considered a major flood risk at the time of the storm.

Seven years later, as even more communities reckon with rising sea levels and catastrophic storms, the Federal Emergency Management Agency is encouraging homeowners and renters to “buy as much flood insurance as they can.” The agency provides more than 96 percent of all flood coverage through its National Flood Insurance Program, making it the sole option for most Americans.

But FEMA is revamping the debt-ridden program to make it operate like a private insurer, raising concerns that coverage could become unaffordable for many higher-risk areas across the country. Agency officials have not said how many Americans could be affected. Private insurers champion the reforms as a way to modernize the NFIP, but the industry also stands to profit. Insurers are now competing directly with FEMA. Companies have also sold the agency on expensive deals with dubious benefits for taxpayers.

New York City officials warn that skyrocketing flood insurance premiums could trigger a foreclosure crisis in neighborhoods like Canarsie, which never recovered from the 2008 housing crash and was a hotbed of predatory loans that targeted black homeowners. Annual premiums in Canarsie — now an average of $600 — could jump to a range of $3,000 to $6,000 as soon as 2022 and become mandatory for more residents.

That expense could be out of reach for many in Canarsie already struggling to keep up with housing costs. “People are just going to be slowly picked off,” said Zachary Paganini, an urban geography researcher at the City University of New York. By forcing communities of color to shoulder the economic burden of escalating flood risk, the government is worsening inequality, he said.

While insurance is marketed as a way for households to bounce back, experts point out the policies do little to prevent disasters. Hundreds of thousands of homes could regularly face flooding from sea level rise by 2050, according to estimates. Heavier rains will threaten properties far from oceans. As the cost of flood protection soars, insurance could be what pushes people from their homes long before climate change does.


So when to the people who own million dollar beach houses built in places where there shouldn't be any permanent structures start screeching for government handouts to defray the cost of owning their vacation home? Oh, noes! My federally backed insurance is so high! The humanity!
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#2425 AnBr

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 09:27 PM

Protein from atmospheric CO₂

Quote

  • The company's protein powder, "Solein," is similar in form and taste to wheat flour.
  • Based on a concept developed by NASA, the product has wide potential as a carbon-neutral source of protein.
  • The man-made "meat" industry just got even more interesting.

“Trump’s a stupid man’s idea of a smart person, a poor man’s idea of a rich person & a weak man’s idea of a strong man.”

— Fran Lebowitz


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

— Carl Sagan


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#2426 baw1064

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Posted 29 February 2020 - 12:02 AM

View PostAnBr, on 28 February 2020 - 09:27 PM, said:


Isn't that what soybean plants do?
“We are happy to announce that the health of the President is decidedly better, the disease with which he was afflicted having assumed a more favorable aspect.”

--Newspaper article, April 1,1841, three days before the death of William Henry Harrison

#2427 AnBr

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Posted 29 February 2020 - 01:06 AM

View Postbaw1064, on 29 February 2020 - 12:02 AM, said:

Isn't that what soybean plants do?

But at the cost of the petroleum agriculture uses, for one thing.
“Trump’s a stupid man’s idea of a smart person, a poor man’s idea of a rich person & a weak man’s idea of a strong man.”

— Fran Lebowitz


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

— Carl Sagan


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#2428 baw1064

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Posted 29 February 2020 - 04:59 PM

View PostAnBr, on 29 February 2020 - 01:06 AM, said:

But at the cost of the petroleum agriculture uses, for one thing.

Just because we typically use petroleum products to grow legumes doesn't mean we need to. People did so for thousands of years without fossil fuels.
“We are happy to announce that the health of the President is decidedly better, the disease with which he was afflicted having assumed a more favorable aspect.”

--Newspaper article, April 1,1841, three days before the death of William Henry Harrison

#2429 AnBr

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Posted 29 February 2020 - 08:58 PM

A LOT more labor intensive. Solar powered ag equipment? All of this reminds me of the gasohol nonsense that took more petroleum to produce, ferment and distill the corn than it saved.
“Trump’s a stupid man’s idea of a smart person, a poor man’s idea of a rich person & a weak man’s idea of a strong man.”

— Fran Lebowitz


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

— Carl Sagan


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#2430 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 08:56 AM

View PostAnBr, on 29 February 2020 - 08:58 PM, said:

A LOT more labor intensive. Solar powered ag equipment? All of this reminds me of the gasohol nonsense that took more petroleum to produce, ferment and distill the corn than it saved.

The solar doesn't have to be attached to the ag equipment, though. Rather more portable than petroleum. Or alcohol, for that matter.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#2431 AnBr

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Posted 01 March 2020 - 06:01 PM

Certainly agriculture could be a lot less petroleum intensive than current typical modern practices demand.
“Trump’s a stupid man’s idea of a smart person, a poor man’s idea of a rich person & a weak man’s idea of a strong man.”

— Fran Lebowitz


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

— Carl Sagan


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#2432 LFC

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Posted 02 March 2020 - 08:48 AM

View PostAnBr, on 01 March 2020 - 06:01 PM, said:

Certainly agriculture could be a lot less petroleum intensive than current typical modern practices demand.

And a lot less water intensive but old ways die hard.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#2433 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 02 March 2020 - 09:12 AM

View PostLFC, on 02 March 2020 - 08:48 AM, said:

And a lot less water intensive but old ways die hard.

True -- but would you care to guess where agriculture rates on the scale of "biggest consumers of fresh water in the USA?"
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#2434 LFC

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Posted 02 March 2020 - 11:05 AM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 02 March 2020 - 09:12 AM, said:

True -- but would you care to guess where agriculture rates on the scale of "biggest consumers of fresh water in the USA?"

I'd guess top 3 without looking it up. Residential / office use (i.e. not a production requirement) would probably be first.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#2435 LFC

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Posted 02 March 2020 - 11:26 AM

Ancient lake bed mud provides evidence that the Mayan culture collapsed due to severe drought. Interesting but then there's this:

Quote

Today, drought continues to aggrieve societies. The United States drought causes annual losses nearing $9 billion, and the environment is increasingly unable to bounce back. In 2017, a NASA study showed that land ecosystems are taking progressively longer to recover from droughts in the 20th century, stating that “incomplete drought recovery may become the new normal in some areas.” The impact of climate change, some scientists argue, may induce multi-decade “mega-droughts.”

However, modern-day droughts don’t necessarily spell out the collapse of our own society, says Andrew Plantinga, Ph.D., who was not involved in the study. Platinga, a professor of natural resource economics and policy at the University of California, Santa Barbara, says that today “we have many ways to mitigate water scarcity that would not have been available to ancient civilizations.” Modern societies can pump water from great depths, move it over great distances, and make water drinkable with technologies like desalinization. We can survive — but it’ll come with a cost.

“Although we have great potential for adaptation to water scarcity, adaptation comes at a cost, and we may well see these costs increase if droughts become more severe with climate change,” says Plantinga. “While humans will adapt to water scarcity for many generations to come, they may be living in a less hospitable and more resource-constrained world.”


So when do the water wars start?
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#2436 Bact PhD

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Posted 02 March 2020 - 12:02 PM

View PostLFC, on 02 March 2020 - 11:26 AM, said:

So when do the water wars start?

Not counting the current inter-state squabbles (FL/AL/GA; CO & points south & west)?

Actual shooting wars over H2O may well be within our children's lifetimes; I'm not so sure about within ours.
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The trouble is that editors and their journalists are simply employees of large profit-seeking corporations whose executives have no idea of what "truth" is; only "ratings" or "clicks" or share price. ~Rich T Bikkies, 10/1/2020

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#2437 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 02 March 2020 - 12:22 PM

View PostLFC, on 02 March 2020 - 11:05 AM, said:

I'd guess top 3 without looking it up. Residential / office use (i.e. not a production requirement) would probably be first.

IIRC agriculture is #2, followed by manufacturing.

First is thermoelectric power production.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#2438 LFC

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Posted 02 March 2020 - 12:50 PM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 02 March 2020 - 12:22 PM, said:

IIRC agriculture is #2, followed by manufacturing.

First is thermoelectric power production.

I have a question about this. Is this really a "destructive" (for lack of a better term in my head) use of water? If this includes all steam generation like nuclear and coal it seems like many/most of these are built on rivers. Water is drawn, used, and while some of it is lost from the site through steam in the air I thought that much of it was returned to the source, just a bit warmer. If that's the case (and I understand I may be completely off here) then it seems that this type of usage isn't really comparable to agriculture which pulls both surface and aquifer water and "loses" it from those sites through evaporation and plant respiration.

Bonus Question: How many of these power plants are built in semi-arid to downright desert areas and require vast amounts of water to be transported to them?
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#2439 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 02 March 2020 - 01:01 PM

Note that I restricted it to "fresh water." When you have a ginormous body of water like at San Onofre, you can just pump lots and lots and that's that. When you're at a place like Gila Bend or Four Corners (the USA's newest nuclear station and a honking huge coal power plant, respectively) that's not nearly so effective for two reasons:
  • The Gila River is mostly dry. Metro Phoenix's sewage effluent is usable, but isn't nearly as voluminous.
  • Four Corners has the Colorado River nearby, but again there isn't all that much reliably there.
In both cases, the water temperature is high enough to seriously impact the thermodynamic efficiency of the system, causing even more waste heat (and operating costs.) The most efficient solution, especially given the low humidity of the region, is to evaporate most of the water. This lets you get temperatures quite a bit lower for less net water transport. So that's what they do. You can see the vapor plume from hundreds of miles away on a cold day.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
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#2440 JackD

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Posted 02 March 2020 - 01:41 PM

"When do the water wars start?"

When they try to pipe the Great Lakes to the desert.





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