Jump to content


John Schindler: Ground Truth About Benghazi


77 replies to this topic

#1 dsp

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3654 posts

Posted 04 May 2014 - 09:53 AM

John Schindler bio

NY Times quotes Schindler's Ukraine analysis

Schindler writes (in part):

Quote

the Obama administration’s serious failures here all came after the smoke had cleared from our consulate and the magnitude of the disaster was obvious. It would be wise to recount the basic right-wing talking points about the events of September 11, 2012:

1) the State Department and White House did not take adequate security precautions for U.S. diplomats and personnel in Benghazi;

2) the attack on CONGEN Benghazi was a preplanned terrorist attack somehow affiliated with al-Qa’ida;

3) more could have been done to rescue U.S. personnel once the attack was underway;

4) to cover itself during the election, the White House concocted a story about a YouTube video leading to spontaneous protests that got violent, ignoring contrary field reports from U.S. diplomats and intelligence personnel;

5) last, the White House engaged in a cover-up of its cover-up of the actual events at Benghazi.

While there is no evidence that point three has any validity – there simply were not sufficient Special Operations personnel or platforms close enough to have made any difference once the attack was underway, following all known evidence to date – it’s now clear, based on what came to light this week, that the other points are true, at least generally.

In response to a disaster of the kind that befalls every administration eventually, the Obama White House decided to obfuscate and, it seems, simply lie. Like Nixon in 1972, this administration opted to “go rogue” to save an election they were going to win anyway.

What could have been a relatively brief scandal that would have cost the jobs of a few White House officials, none too senior - who, naturally, would have landed lucrative K Street gigs within an hour of their cashiering – instead went another direction, and the Obama administration now faces a political nightmare. There’s a reason, “it’s not the crime that gets you, it’s the cover-up,” is the most overused DC cliche: it’s so often true. Predictably, House Speaker John Boehner has already announced a special committee to reexamine Benghazi, and he intends to call Secretary of State John Kerry to testify. This will likely devolve into a sad partisan spectacle like everything else does on Capitol Hill these days, but the White House decided to give the GOP this scandal on a platter with its slow-rolling mishandling of the Benghazi tragedy, and now they have no one to blame but themselves.

Just as predictably, plenty on the left are insisting, yet again, that Republicans are inventing a scandal and Benghazi is really no big deal, and besides it was all of two years ago. These excuses hover between dumb and disgraceful. It is always a big deal when a U.S. diplomatic facility comes under major terrorist attack, particularly when our ambassador lays down his life. Moreover, those on the left harping about the right harping about Benghazi are frequently the same people who, only a few years ago, were protesting that the largely contrived scandal surrounding Valerie Plame – it was so harmful to Ms. Plame that it landed her on the cover of Vanity Fair, most glamorously – was the biggest abuse of White House power since Watergate, requiring aggressive prosecution of evildoers. The tables have turned, and this is how the DC game is played, so get used to it.

Ground Truth About Benghazi

#2 J-CA

    Probably in one of my drunken stupors..

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4768 posts

Posted 04 May 2014 - 10:08 AM

I missed the "Ground Truth" in that story, the post seems to just assert that the points 4 and 5 are at least partly true. So, why does he believe that?
I am the burrito until someone hands me to a philosopher.

#3 J-CA

    Probably in one of my drunken stupors..

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4768 posts

Posted 04 May 2014 - 10:23 AM

This is the thing?
http://www.judicialw...-14.pdf#page=14
I am the burrito until someone hands me to a philosopher.

#4 Traveler

    Rambling Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13368 posts
  • LocationPhilly Area

Posted 04 May 2014 - 10:36 AM

J-CA, thanks for bringing it up, but tl/dr. Anything of any substance?

As to Schindler's point 4 , my understanding was that there was all sorts of multiple lines of evidence for both theories. So not a cover up so much as selective perspectives. So then no. 5 then becomes even more tenuous. And bitching about the left dismissing ambassador taking one for the team is kind of superficial compared to the embassy bombings since Reagan, where far more people died, and nobody blamed State or the administration. Shit happens. Schindler can spin it any way he wants to, but an historical perspective is not in his playbook. (Although Schindler does seem to have the chops.)

This belongs in the dsp ODS thread.

Edited by Traveler, 04 May 2014 - 10:41 AM.

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#5 J-CA

    Probably in one of my drunken stupors..

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4768 posts

Posted 04 May 2014 - 10:58 AM

View PostTraveler, on 04 May 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

J-CA, thanks for bringing it up, but tl/dr. Anything of any substance?
Here is the CIA memo that was at the start of all this.
http://www.thewire.c...o-drafts/65089/
The important thing:

Quote

Sept. 15, 11:26 am

• The currently available information suggests that the demonstrations in Benghazi were spontaneously inspired by the protests at the U.S. Embassy in Cairo and evolved into a direct assault against the U.S. diplomatic post Consulate and subsequently its annex. There are indications that extremists participated in the violent demonstrations.
Cairo was not any kind of assault it was just a protest.
http://www.reuters.c...E88A11N20120911
I have not seen anything that indicated that the protest in Cairo was about anything other than the "movie."

The link to the PDF above has an email with talk-show prep notes in it that say:

Quote

The email lists the following two goals, among others:
"To underscore that these protests are rooted in an Internet video, and not a broader failure of policy."
"To reinforce the President and Administration's strength and steadiness in dealing with difficult challenges."
Also from that article:

Quote

The email is also significant because in congressional testimony in early April, former deputy CIA director Michael Morell told lawmakers it was Rice, in her Sunday show appearances, who linked the video to the Benghazi attack. Morell said the video was not part of the CIA analysis.
"My reaction was two-fold," Morell told members of the House Intelligence Committee, regarding her appearances. "One was that what she said about the attacks evolving spontaneously from a protest was exactly what the talking points said, and it was exactly what the intelligence community analysts believed. When she talked about the video, my reaction was, that's not something that the analysts have attributed this attack to."

So the smoking gun here is that the CIA sent out talking points that said that the attack was inspired by a protest that started in Cairo, all indications are that the protests in Cairo were about the video, ergo it was misleading to indicate to the public that the attack had anything to do with the video? Doesn't compute for me. This seems like about the mildest spin you could possibly put on the case presented, it is not even a lie, they connected two dots in their PR strategy that the whole media world had already pre-connected for them on TV for two or more days straight.

What am I missing?
I am the burrito until someone hands me to a philosopher.

#6 Traveler

    Rambling Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13368 posts
  • LocationPhilly Area

Posted 04 May 2014 - 11:18 AM

Nothing as far as I can see from what you posted, and what I have read already.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#7 gmat

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3391 posts

Posted 04 May 2014 - 12:23 PM

Point 1 is obviously true, but that must have been a conscious decision. Because if "they" didn't expect that, sooner or later, they would get hit by at least a company-sized attack, with company weapons (mortars, machine guns, rockets, vehicles), then "they" are dumb as shit, and should be locked up for cashing their government pay checks.

Benghazi was and is the home of what used to be called the Libyan Islamist Fighting Group, who have fought in every clime and place where a jihadi could take a gun, since the 80s. And those guys hate Americans, hate infidels, and especially hate American infidels. Why on earth would anyone think they would tolerate a bunch of US spooks playing in their yard?

I can only assume the US mission had assurances from somebody they thought was in charge, or else they just decided to roll the dice and bet their lives they could get whatever they were doing done.

#8 D. R. Tucker

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1131 posts

Posted 04 May 2014 - 01:37 PM

Posted Image

http://luckovich.blo...loss-for-words/

#9 Sinan

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2737 posts
  • LocationCalifornia

Posted 04 May 2014 - 02:43 PM

They are career diplomats stationed in a war zone. Shit happens. Next.
"anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist."
Kenneth Boulding

"A person who reads books lives a thousand lives. A person who never reads lives only one"
George Martin

"Is that a real poncho or a Sears poncho?"
Zappa

"and let not mankind bogart love"

Willie Nelson and Colbert

#10 Progressive whisperer

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10233 posts

Posted 04 May 2014 - 04:02 PM

IIRC, the ambassador was offered more sequrity some weeks before, and didn't feel it was needed. Benghazi was the immediate cause of the U.S. and allied air campaign; having expelled Libyian authorities and with a Libyian armored division approaching with the apparent intent if bombarding the city into submission. One would assume most of the inhabitants were friendly to the U.S. at that point. In fact, the faction that carried out the attack was pretty quickly driven out once their identity became known.

Was it a screw-up? I'd say absolutely. That doesn't make it a scandle (unless you are really desperate to invent one for President Obama).

It doesn't make much sense as a cover-up either, unless you assume that the POTUS supervises the security of every U.S. embassy personally.

Or, in the case of the most far-out wingnut conspiricy theory, that President Obama WANTED the attack, I guess because he is really a Muslim terrorist at heart and this was somehow the best he could do to harm our own interests. That one is truely demented.
Trump delenda est.
GOP delenda est.
Resist!

#11 cmk

    Chief Cook and Bottle Washer

  • Administrators
  • PipPipPip
  • 7540 posts
  • LocationBennington, VT, USA, Earth, Solar System, Milky Way, Known Universe

Posted 04 May 2014 - 04:41 PM

Is 'ground truth' anything like 'ground meat'?
Charles M. Kozierok - Administrator, TalkRadioSucks.com

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer

"Atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sex position." -- Bill Maher


"Our new Government['s] foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition." -- Alexander Stephens, Vice-President of the Confederacy

#12 Rue Bella

    Emerging from a state of cryogenic denial

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 8108 posts
  • LocationSoCal

Posted 04 May 2014 - 05:17 PM

Quote

That doesn't make it a scandle (unless you are really desperate to invent one for President Obama).

This 'scandal' is not aimed at Obama... he's already been elected and re-elected. This one's for Hillary.

What is wrong with these people? ~ PG

California Secession - Let my people go!

#13 baw1064

    formerly of the public sector

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5111 posts
  • LocationEarthquakes, tsunamis, and volcanos--oh my!

Posted 04 May 2014 - 05:39 PM

View Postcmk, on 04 May 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

Is 'ground truth' anything like 'ground meat'?

Exactly. A ground truth patty contains 100% of the amount of truthiness recommended by most political consultants. You can eat one for breakfast or lunch and have all the truth you need for the whole day!
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#14 indy

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 9371 posts

Posted 04 May 2014 - 06:55 PM

More Benghazi. Man, it gets old.

#15 AnBr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13758 posts

Posted 04 May 2014 - 07:41 PM

View Postbaw1064, on 04 May 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

Exactly. A ground truth patty contains 100% of the amount of truthiness recommended by most political consultants. You can eat one for breakfast or lunch and have all the truth you need for the whole day!

Watched a lot of Colbert, I take it.
“Trump’s a stupid man’s idea of a smart person, a poor man’s idea of a rich person & a weak man’s idea of a strong man.”

— Fran Lebowitz


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

— Carl Sagan


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#16 baw1064

    formerly of the public sector

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5111 posts
  • LocationEarthquakes, tsunamis, and volcanos--oh my!

Posted 04 May 2014 - 07:43 PM

View PostAnBr, on 04 May 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

Watched a lot of Colbert, I take it.

And the spellchecker on this site doesn't think truthiness is a word! :-P
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#17 Rue Bella

    Emerging from a state of cryogenic denial

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 8108 posts
  • LocationSoCal

Posted 05 May 2014 - 02:46 PM

View Postbaw1064, on 04 May 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

And the spellchecker on this site doesn't think truthiness is a word! :-P

It also thinks Benghazi is spelled with only one Z. :huh:
What is wrong with these people? ~ PG

California Secession - Let my people go!

#18 Progressive whisperer

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 10233 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 02:59 PM

View Postbaw1064, on 04 May 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:



Exactly. A ground truth patty contains 100% of the amount of truthiness recommended by most political consultants. You can eat one for breakfast or lunch and have all the truth you need for the whole day!

"What am I; ground truthiness?"
Trump delenda est.
GOP delenda est.
Resist!

#19 dsp

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3654 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 04:48 PM

Direct orders from the WH to focus on the video and only the video knowing full well Rice was going up to talk about Benghazi. The new information is the email from Rhodes. I would ask what else does anyone need to begin to suspect this WH on point 4, but when claims from Carney and the WH are always instantly embraced as true, there is probably no point, even though this info is NEW.

Maybe somewhere folded into the Dark Matter, or embedded in the fabric of the known universe between the most distant quasar and the Higgs Boson particles, we will one day find grounds for suspecting this admin here at TRS.

#20 J-CA

    Probably in one of my drunken stupors..

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4768 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 06:26 PM

But what do you suspect them of?
I am the burrito until someone hands me to a philosopher.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users