2591 replies to this topic

[gmat]

Banty, on 25 February 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

Can you give a cite for that? Specific people came from Lviv to Kiev and were a large or important part of the protest?

I've been reading a lot in the past week, mostly via Reddit, but this is about all I saw in the tame American press about the neo-nazis in Kiev

http://www.nytimes.c...-time.html?_r=0

Right Sector is pure neo-nazi from Lviv. The most visible Right Sector guy is Alexandr Muzichko, aka Sashko Bilyei, but I don't know if he is personally in Kiev.

[Practical Girl]

gmat, on 21 February 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

Clearly not a US problem, but it does backlight a pervasive Russophobic tilt in the mainstream US chatter.

Yep. FWIW, I find the timing of the most current actions not surprising at all. What better way to guarantee worldwide coverage- that won't be subject to censorship through Internet channels etc- and take advantage of high quality video distributed by the world's biggest news sources than to start this just when many were setting up in the region to cover the Olympics?

BBC is in Kiev with a good sized crew. But the US news sources? Sure, there are "Moscow bureaus" (CNN most prominently), but the crews were skeletal or non existent locally until the Olympic gear-up in December. Tell the story when the biggest guys on the block just "happen" to be in the region with easier access? I don't think that was accidental.

[Banty]

gmat, on 25 February 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

I've been reading a lot in the past week, mostly via Reddit, but this is about all I saw in the tame American press about the neo-nazis in Kiev

http://www.nytimes.c...-time.html?_r=0

Right Sector is pure neo-nazi from Lviv. The most visible Right Sector guy is Alexandr Muzichko, aka Sashko Bilyei, but I don't know if he is personally in Kiev.

NYT today has three factions.

None of these revolutions are 'pure' from our standpoint.

http://www.nytimes.c...ukraine.html?hp

Makes me think of what the composition of opposition would be in the US, if we were ever under some form of foreign domination.

[Banty]

Practical Girl, on 25 February 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

Yep. FWIW, I find the timing of the most current actions not surprising at all. What better way to guarantee worldwide coverage- that won't be subject to censorship through Internet channels etc- and take advantage of high quality video distributed by the world's biggest news sources than to start this just when many were setting up in the region to cover the Olympics?

BBC is in Kiev with a good sized crew. But the US news sources? Sure, there are "Moscow bureaus" (CNN most prominently), but the crews were skeletal or non existent locally until the Olympic gear-up in December. Tell the story when the biggest guys on the block just "happen" to be in the region with easier access? I don't think that was accidental.

BBC is by far the best source for world news.

[Progressive whisperer]

gmat, on 25 February 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

That's not over the top at all. That's what just happened. The US was throwing money around in Kiev like a drunken sailor, paying people salaries to be demonstrators, paying for what was initially a carnival in Kiev, free food, booze, and entertainment; and then paying to bus in street fighters from the west, who are very much the neo-nazis Parry is talking about.
It was not difficult to discern when a peaceful demonstration by students and young liberals got co-opted by violent, trained nationalists, with a structured plan to bring down the government.
The fact that Yanukovich was 1)a fool, and 2)spineless, played right into their hands.
And what was the US objective? Make trouble for Russia. If it's bad for Russia it's good for the US. Pure Cold War double rectified bullshit. Except the Cold War ended 25 years ago, and the DC elite, who for 3 generations lived a very fat life on Cold War proceeds, has been having a crisis of relevance ever since.
Now, who is going to bail out west-central Ukraine? (What economy there is, is all in the S and E) The EU? Their pathetic nickel and dime plan was laughable compared to what Russia put on the table, back when all this started. Where are they going to come up with $25 B, and that's just the ante? (And how will they explain it to Greece and Spain, if they do?)
Is the US going to bail them out? And get what in return?

You do realize that this reads like a press release by the (now ousted) president's party? Sullivan and others had pieces about the U.S. right wing posting verbatim stories from that source and in some cases being paid to do so. For that matter, it's basically the same claim every anti-U.S. dictator makes; the protests against me are purely a CIA plot, all 110% of the population love me like a father!

I get that the situation is complex (that's part of the issue, the idea that all the protestors are Neo-Nazis or paid provocateurs is too simple). Ukrainians have disliked Moskovites since Czarist times, which lead to many collaborating with the Germans in WWII. In the end, it's the Parliment that kicked the President out.

[Practical Girl]

Banty, on 25 February 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

BBC is by far the best source for world news.

Yes, but not widely consumed in the US. I was responding specifically to the "up the ante" in America/get our attention aspect.

[Banty]

Progressive whisperer, on 25 February 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

I get that the situation is complex (that's part of the issue, the idea that all the protestors are Neo-Nazis or paid provocateurs is too simple). Ukrainians have disliked Moskovites since Czarist times, which lead to many collaborating with the Germans in WWII. In the end, it's the Parliment that kicked the President out.

Kievites were brave enough to tell me - an American tourist, an obvious long-striding jeans-wearing Amerikanka - that in 1983, Soviet times. It was commonly known that Ukranian dissent was more open even then.

BTW, some also told me of their nostalgia for the strong stability of a ruler like Stalin. Moscovites and Leningrad residents were never so bold.

I think nationalism is inevitable (the only other alternative being foreign domination) but it never was the same as a drive to democracy. Not exclusive of it either, but not the same.

[LFC]

A bit of a situation summary at the New Yorker:

http://www.newyorker...ew-ukraine.html

[Traveler]

J-CA, on 25 February 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

I had not heard this, where do these reports come from?

Regarding the debt situation and the IMF, if the linked article is correct and the Ukrainians have a modest $13B is debt I would suggest that their economic problems, as it relates to the solvency of the government, is the least of their worries, less than 10% of GDP. It is in fact a number so tiny and the EU, US, and/or Russia could easily help them out with it if so inclined.

Actually, all the sources I read say they need to come up with $35b by the end of the year, and they are now cut off from all conventional lending sources. IMF may be on its way, but as the apt analogy of Stratfor says, that is like surgery without anesthesia. The Russian offer of $15b would seriously have helped paper over the problem, but from what I gather it would only prolong the bleeding. The oligarchs have looted Ukraine dry. So now the real bleeding looks to start in earnest.

[J-CA]

http://www.reuters.c...EA1N1LE20140224

$35B over the next two years. Sounds like the IMF conditions are not actually very onerous, remove fuel subsidies and float their currency - that they do not have a floating currency now is a pretty good sign that they can make a quick adjustment just by making use of that option. I really need them to flood the nitrogen fertilizer market by this coming Autumn.

Edit: From that article, seems like poor planning just built a time-bomb more than anything else:

Quote

"Ukraine doesn't have a solvency problem, it doesn't have much debt. But it lacks hard currency and has a large (funding) deficit," Halkett of Stone Harbor said. "So yes, some sort of terming out of the maturity structure of Ukrainian debt would be extremely helpful for them."

[indy]

This is where I pause a moment and reflect on how much worse this could have been. It was Sam Nunn and Richard Lugar, with the help of a lot of American taxpayer dollars, that managed to get 2000 nuclear warheads out of the Ukraine 20 years ago. One of the many reasons Lugar did not deserve the ignoble end to his career he suffered at the hands of the stupid people he represented pretty well.

[Traveler]

J-CA, on 25 February 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

http://www.reuters.c...EA1N1LE20140224

$35B over the next two years. Sounds like the IMF conditions are not actually very onerous, remove fuel subsidies and float their currency - that they do not have a floating currency now is a pretty good sign that they can make a quick adjustment just by making use of that option. I really need them to flood the nitrogen fertilizer market by this coming Autumn.

Edit: From that article, seems like poor planning just built a time-bomb more than anything else:

You mean by this fall? But surely you don't apply N at that time of year?

Good article on the bond issues. That negative yield curve is hairy though. Cannot believe Templeton owns $6b of Ukraine. Them's some steel cojones.

[gmat]

Progressive whisperer, on 25 February 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

You do realize that this reads like a press release by the (now ousted) president's party? Sullivan and others had pieces about the U.S. right wing posting verbatim stories from that source and in some cases being paid to do so. For that matter, it's basically the same claim every anti-U.S. dictator makes; the protests against me are purely a CIA plot, all 110% of the population love me like a father!

I get that the situation is complex (that's part of the issue, the idea that all the protestors are Neo-Nazis or paid provocateurs is too simple). Ukrainians have disliked Moskovites since Czarist times, which lead to many collaborating with the Germans in WWII. In the end, it's the Parliment that kicked the President out.

I'm sure on reflection you will agree that nothing I wrote sounded remotely like "110% of the population loved me! etc". As for the CIA, I don't know. I heard the US money was simply funneled from the embassy through one of the local anti-regime parties. Also attributing to me the notion that "all the protestors" were this or that is what the freedom loving Ukranians call a strawsky mansky. Doesn't have to be "all" or even "most" or even "more than a few" to get the job done.

Of course many Ukranians hate Russia. Many others prefer Russia over Europe. It's split by region, by age, and by religion. The notion that the crowds in Kiev represented the will of "the Ukranians" is bullshit. It represented the will of some of the Ukranians, backed by US and EU money, and a totally compliant western media. There was a lot more muscle pushing the anti-regime line. I've seen videos of pro-regime people trying to hold a rally; they were lucky to escape with only a few kicks to the face, and that's with the police right there, trying to protect them.

If you will remember, the EU brokered a parliament approved deal with lots of concessions and new elections, and the was told by the street fighters occupying, among other places, the parliament building, that they had til 10 am Saturday morning to shitcan the President, or bad shit was going to happen. You bet your ass the Parliament, minus any pro-regime MPs, who rightly feared getting lynched, kicked the President out.

Oh I forgot. When I wander from my usual TAC or CSM, it's usually in the direction of Antiwar.com or Counterpunch, and most of the stuff there is not what I would call right wing. In stuff to do with Russia, I also check in with RT, which will obviously be biased toward the Kremlin in a case like this, but you will see video you won't see in the American media.

[J-CA]

Traveler, on 25 February 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

You mean by this fall? But surely you don't apply N at that time of year?

Yes, we apply NH₃ in the fall and usually buy our spring-applied urea in the fall when the prices are low. NH₃ losses are very low, banded urea losses are low too though we do not do that since NH₃ is cheaper. There are idiots that apply MAP/DAP (11-52-0) over winter on top of the snow if you can believe that! I am pretty sure that the government is going to shut them down though, it is foolish practices like that that are killing the lakes.

[Beelzebuddy]

Is the U.S. Backing Neo-Nazis in Ukraine?


Just breezed through first couple of paras. Looks like some testimony (as reported by Max Blumenthal) from people in the square.



Edited for spelling
Edited for attribution

Edited by Beelzebuddy, 25 February 2014 - 07:25 PM.

[drdredel]

gmat, on 22 February 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

I like the way Putin stabilized Russia. I didn't like the idea of a nuclear armed failed state. I like how he deals with the threat of Muslim terrorists. And I think it's stupid, because unnecessary, to do provocative shit like trying to put NATO on the Russian border, which is what that EU-Ukraine deal called for.

There are so many begging questions in this paragraph that I don't know where to begin illuminating all the fallacy, but suffice it to say that Putin is an incredibly dangerous entity in a once again incredibly dangerous Russia. To ascribe any positive qualities to him is to be completely misinformed.

Please find me a single western thinker who specializes in Russia (or knows anything about it) and has anything nice to say about Putin.

Seriously... you're wildly off base here.

[baw1064]

drdredel, on 25 February 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

There are so many begging questions in this paragraph that I don't know where to begin illuminating all the fallacy, but suffice it to say that Putin is an incredibly dangerous entity in a once again incredibly dangerous Russia. To ascribe any positive qualities to him is to be completely misinformed.

Please find me a single western thinker who specializes in Russia (or knows anything about it) and has anything nice to say about Putin.

Seriously... you're wildly off base here.

He behaves much more responsibly than Kim Jong Un.

[drdredel]

baw1064, on 25 February 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

He behaves much more responsibly than Kim Jong Un.

I'd be happy to explain why that's not true, but even if it were, what does that prove? That there are other terrible leaders of dangerous nations? I never claimed otherwise.

[hisgirlfriday]

This situation is so complicated it's kind of frustrating how simplistic the media has to cover things in terms of good guys and bad guys. It's also frustrating seeing posters I otherwise enjoy reading seemingly falling into the trap of looking into this situation as if there is a clear good side and a clear bad side.

My personal viewpoint is that Putin is a ruthless despot suppressor of democratic freedom AND the people thwarting his imperial ambitions in Ukraine may include neo-Nazis in their midst. I feel bad for the people of Ukraine who have to choose between them and almost certainly will wind up with gas-guzzling oligarchs controlling their politics even after their old regime is replaced, no matter whether the media reports they are now more closely aligned with the West or East when the smoke clears.

What would be nice is if this entire episode allowed American media an opportunity to actually report on what is happening in Europe these days, but thanks to budget cuts there are hardly any permanent foreign correspondents and permanent foreign news bureaus left to provide proper context when events like this unfold that it makes everything foggier.

The thing about the neo-Nazi element of the Ukrainian protestors that I find fairly important to recognize is that this element actually has some political legitimacy in that the far right, nationalist Svoboda party was actually one of the 5 largest parties in Ukraine and had seats in Parliament even before the protests blew up. It is also important for Americans to understand that this sort of element in Ukrainian politics is not unique to Ukraine but is flaring up in various shapes and forms across Europe. You see it in a less threatening or less unattractive form via the nationalist effort of Scotland and in an uglier form via the anti-immigrant party UKIP, both in the UK. You see it in the increasing popularity of the National Front party in France. You see it in perhaps its most vicious form to date in the antics of Golden Dawn in Greece. Our wizards of finance and commerce have done a very good job of convincing politicians that globalism is the best thing for everyone over the course of the last 30 years and they have set us on a course for giving up our sovereignty at the behest of international governing bodies and corporations, but these elites have done a much worse sales job when it comes to convincing the everyday people of nations around the world that globalism is in everyone's best interest, and we are now reaping the result of that alienation in the rise of nationalist sentiments of various flavors throughout Europe.

The other thing that drives me crazy about the coverage of Ukraine is that there are so many reports about Ukraine being in so much debt, but rarely does the news report even say who is owed the debt or why or what the debt is for. Do they owe all this debt to Ukrainian public employee pensions, the IMF, Russian gas companies, Goldman Sachs?!?! Who do they owe this money to? And why can't there be a jubilee to forgive this debt or a way to confiscate the ill-gotten gains of their corrupt politicians and sell that off to satisfy the debts?

[Rich T Bikkies]

baw1064, on 25 February 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

He behaves much more responsibly than Kim Jong Un.

My God, that's setting the bar REALLY low. "Much"? Fifteen percent better than absolute zero is absolute zero. Kim Jong Un as the baseline? For fewk's sake, why him?

drdredel, on 25 February 2014 - 10:02 PM, said:

Please find me a single western thinker who specializes in Russia (or knows anything about it) and has anything nice to say about Putin.

Absolutely. Putin is SERIOUSLY BAD NEWS.