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Obamacare & Healthcare in America (was Tales of People Screwed by...)


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#41 Traveler

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 12:19 PM

View PostLFC, on 08 January 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

I thought the fourth one had holes you could drive an out-of-pocket ambulance through. First, it failed to disclose that its source for the employer insurance numbers was a trade group for independent insurance salesmen. You know. The type of person that might be losing business to exchanges when owners of very small companies go that route instead of through their own commission based route. BIG miss. Second, and most important, there are lots of increase numbers thrown around and not even a single example given as to how the ACA has anything to do with them. MASSIVE miss. Finally, there's not a word about coverage differences.

In terms of usefulness and disclosure, this "article" (more lightweight op-ed) is Swiss cheese.

Well I was just trying to be *fair and balanced*! It really would be interesting to see an analysis of apples to apples for policies pre and post ACA. My apple got shinier with no hidden wormholes. Others, I dunno.
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#42 J-CA

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 12:24 PM

View PostProgressive whisperer, on 08 January 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

More to the point is the base believes him because he is confirming their beliefs anyway, and they have at least 30 years of complaining about the "liberal media" to fall back on when called out. Especially for a story that breaks in Mother Jones!
At the risk of sounding like a broken record I will repeat my assertion that the good political lie is the one that confirms widely held false beliefs because the corrections won't change anyone's mind about the facts, the lie, or the liar. It is a win-win for Rand, he is only speaking to the base anyway.
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#43 LFC

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 12:41 PM

View PostTraveler, on 08 January 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Well I was just trying to be *fair and balanced*! It really would be interesting to see an analysis of apples to apples for policies pre and post ACA. My apple got shinier with no hidden wormholes. Others, I dunno.

From my own personal experiences, your apple was bound to get shinier the instant you dropped United Healthcare. The coverage standards are pretty sweet too.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#44 Traveler

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 12:43 PM

J-CA, Hard to keep the lie going for the better part of a year though. Especially after the final enrollment numbers come out in March. Remember, the majority didn't buy Rmoney's lies by November. I think this has a long way to go yet. That is why I am so interested in seeing what folks actually *lost* compared to what they are getting now.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#45 AnBr

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 01:41 PM

A lie for many is not evident that it is a lie until it directly affects them. For example, if they have insurance through their work, would they even notice what is truly broken and what is not? If not, Faux, Paul, et al can continue to lie with impunity.
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#46 J-CA

    Probably in one of my drunken stupors..

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 01:51 PM

It was the truth that sunk Romney, not lies. Rand has little concern about keeping anything going. The cycle is to rile, solicit for donations. Repeat as necessary.
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#47 Traveler

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 05:25 PM

While grazing on the Christie leavings, I found this gem of disinformation. Amazing what is out there....
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#48 LFC

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 05:48 PM

View PostTraveler, on 08 January 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

While grazing on the Christie leavings, I found this gem of disinformation. Amazing what is out there....

Lies, lies, lies. I had to debunk the nonsense about there being an ACA tax on hunting and fishing equipment more than once. It is pretty sad that people will go off about the tax that is assessed on these items, but they have no idea that these taxes have been there for decades with the support of sportsmen and the revenues are used for specific purposes that benefit these sportsmen.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#49 golden_valley

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 06:08 PM

Quote

they have no idea that these taxes have been there for decades with the support of sportsmen and the revenues are used for specific purposes that benefit these sportsmen.

...but, but taxes are baaaddd! That's all you need to know. End of discussion.

#50 LFC

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 06:22 PM

View Postgolden_valley, on 08 January 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

...but, but taxes are baaaddd! That's all you need to know. End of discussion.

Replace the word "drugs" with "taxes" in this video and you've got ... Mitch McConnell!


" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#51 Banty

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 12:53 PM

Interesting Politifact on the Rand Paul's son and Medicaid thing:

http://www.politifac...th-care-market/
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#52 Practical Girl

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 02:58 PM

View PostBanty, on 09 January 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

Interesting Politifact on the Rand Paul's son and Medicaid thing:

http://www.politifac...th-care-market/

The Anatomy of A Scandal- its projection, what the central figures will claim, how their claims can be justified within nebulous situations, how they'll be able to weasel out. If you track from the beginning of this thread (and the Christie one, too), you can see that TRSers can predict the outcomes and even much of the specifics before they even happen. I don't think we're alone. Often, I'm left with the impression that dust ups like the Rand Paul thing are created precisely to that model, just to keep their issues out front.
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#53 Traveler

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 06:08 PM

Well McArdle came out with some interesting facts today.


Quote

"Five million people were deemed eligible to buy a policy on the exchanges; 2.7 million, or 54 percent of them, were eligible for subsidies. But of people who actually selected a plan, 1.68 million, or 80 percent, were subsidized. To put it another way, 62 percent of the people eligible for subsidies selected a plan, but only 8.5 percent of those who weren't eligible for subsidies actually purchased one.

That is very different from the information we were getting in December, when most of the people who selected plans were not eligible for subsidies. The giant surge in December enrollment seems to have been composed almost entirely of people who were eligible for subsidies. And most of them chose pretty generous coverage: Only 1 percent of the marketplace enrolled in catastrophic plans, and only 20 percent have the so-called bronze plans, the bottom tier of regular plans. More than half chose silver, the level of coverage that the subsidies are pegged to, with the rest distributed among gold and platinum plans.

This is much closer to what the Congressional Budget Office was projecting, in terms of subsidized enrollment; it had predicted that about 85 percent of the people on the exchanges would get subsidies. So in one sense, it’s not novel. But it does show enrollment looking a lot more like the wonks had been projecting, and that’s important. The next step for the administration is to get the mix of young and healthy people more in line with initial forecasts."

However, previous posts here suggest this ratio is already priced in, and likely to get better, so looking pretty good for ACA after all. Smart as she is, her math is wrong. It's 17.5% of the ineligible that have signed up. And seeing as how its still a good deal for us ineligibles, this looks promising.

Edited by Traveler, 13 January 2014 - 06:20 PM.

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#54 Traveler

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 06:03 PM

As your resident ACA monitor, here is the latest from Ezra.
An interesting observation:

Quote

Indeed, the most valuable enrollee, from the insurer's perspective, isn't a healthy 21-year-old. It's a healthy 55-year-old. They pay more into the system than the healthy young person but they don't take much more out.
that's me, at least so far.
comment:

Quote

Whoa to he who tries to penetrate the dark, tangled jungle of Conservative Obamacare Hatred. Thou shalt be met with Arguments of Unusual Circularity and Comments of Exceptional Ad Hominem.

Trends of the younger cohort are moving up. Not clear in the graphs but it was 18% at week 10 and now at 24%. Tings be looking good.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#55 LFC

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 04:32 PM

Josh Marshall over at TPM provides ACA signup numbers and talks about the right-wing rage that's building as their dream of destroying Obamacare fades. He sums up the arguments by the people he calls the "Obamacare dead-enders" quite well:

Quote

Now, as I said up at the top, there are a lot of Obamacare dead-enders out there who just blow a gasket when they make first contact with these numbers. The first claim is that Medicaid expansion somehow doesn't count. Or it doesn't count if a 24 year old is now covered under their parents policy because well that happened a while ago or well, something.

The best dead-ender argument is that well, maybe these people who've signed up for subsidized private insurance policies won't end up paying their premiums. When the arguments get down to this level you know you're dealing with a deep and intense form of denial. I mean, what if all these people change their mind next month and decide they don't want the coverage after all? What if Obamacare is so bad they all die in the Spring? What if Spartacus had an airplane? If you really, really are hoping for bad news you can come up with anything to keep hope, as it were, alive.


And then finally, these numbers are just more administration lies. Because, well, because. Here's where Gaba's spreadsheet is so helpful. It has the breakdown for private insurance and Medicaid expansion in numbers in every state with a link to an independent news source reporting the numbers.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#56 Banty

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 05:23 PM

Now, as I said up at the top, there are a lot of Obamacare dead-enders out there who just blow a gasket when they make first contact with these numbers. The first claim is that Medicaid expansion somehow doesn't count. Or it doesn't count if a 24 year old is now covered under their parents policy because well that happened a while ago or well, something.

They argue that insurance companies were going in that direction anyway, so that can't be counted.

That argument can be discarded pretty quickly because they *hadn't* been, until the ACA. It was just one of the easier things to implement and one of the least painful, being as up to 26érs are a pretty cheap population.
"It can happen here. It is happening here. No election has been more important in my lifetime." - Andrew Sullivan, 7/21/2016
It did happen here. - Banty 11/9/2016

#57 Traveler

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 05:56 PM

Hate to throw cold water on these crowful numbers, but read this by Megan.

Quote

Somewhere between 65 percent to 90 percent of the 2.2 million folks who bought insurance on the exchanges through late December seem to be people who already had insurance. Some came to the exchanges when their policies got canceled; others came, voluntarily or not, from the employer market. But various sources suggest that the number of previously uninsured people who have so far bought policies on the exchanges is somewhere south of 750,000.
To put that number in perspective, the Congressional Budget Office projected that the exchanges would sign up 7 million people in the first year, roughly 2 million of them transitioning from other insurance plans and 5 million of them previously uninsured. If the Journal’s numbers are right, then by the end of December, the exchanges had signed up at least 1.45 million previously insured folks out of the 2 million who were projected to enroll by the end of May -- roughly 75 percent of the projected total. But at most, they’ve signed up 15 percent of the uninsured that they were expecting to enroll. You’d expect the early numbers to be somewhat weighted toward the previously insured, who probably want to maintain continuous coverage. Still, this is a fairly wild skew, and it leaves us with a burning question: Where are the uninsured? Did hardly any of them want coverage beginning Jan. 1?


Recall that her math was incorrect, understating enrollments by half. But still uncomfortably low IMO.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#58 Banty

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 06:18 PM

View PostTraveler, on 23 January 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

Hate to throw cold water on these crowful numbers, but read this by Megan.
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Recall that her math was incorrect, understating enrollments by half. But still uncomfortably low IMO.

Don't forget all the uninsured in states that would not allow the Medicaid expansion.
"It can happen here. It is happening here. No election has been more important in my lifetime." - Andrew Sullivan, 7/21/2016
It did happen here. - Banty 11/9/2016

#59 LFC

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 06:24 PM

View PostTraveler, on 23 January 2014 - 05:56 PM, said:

Hate to throw cold water on these crowful numbers, but read this by Megan.

Recall that her math was incorrect, understating enrollments by half. But still uncomfortably low IMO.

I'd like to know what the "various sources" are that "suggest" a number below 750,000. This should have been very easy for her to do in a piece posted on the internet. They're called "links". I'm not saying that she's not right, but I'd like some backing for something that extreme.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#60 Traveler

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Posted 23 January 2014 - 07:38 PM

The actual numbers for all this crap are way too elusive, considering the resources of the fourth estate. I still don't know how may folks actually lost their individual coverage, let alone why. I still don't know how much more expensive the ACA plans were compared to the original plans, once subsidies and coverage improvements were factored in. I mean this is simple statistics and math.

And this has been going on for four fucking months now, and all we still get are pundits who cannot parse math properly and a bunch bloviating blow hards? We gotta rely on a Pew poll to give us an indication? But no real data? I blame BO as much as the blowhards. I cannot believe the lack of transparency. Math boo-boo aside, McArdle is about as sensible as they come, and her take is none to promising. So better pay attention folks. This could sink dems in 2014, maybe even 2016.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire





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