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What Does Boy Scouts Of America Have In Common With The Catholic Church?


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#1 Practical Girl

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 04:26 PM

Hidden sexual abuse of children would be one thing.
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#2 Rue Bella

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 06:59 PM

Wow... hundreds of cases? I knew there were some, but not that many. But as they say, if one is attracted to kids, go to where the kids are.

Quote

What Does Boy Scouts Of America Have In Common With The Catholic Church?

In addition to child molestors:

Cute little uniforms in which to dress the kiddies.
Fear of homosexuality.
Old, established 'respected' organization who wants to keep their reputation clean, no matter what.

It never occurred to me how similar boyscouts are to altar boys - kids who are striving to do the right things but who are victimized instead.
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#3 MSheridan

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:53 AM

Less than two months ago, I was asked by a close friend if I would be willing to be one of the accompanying adults who go on hiking/camping trips with her twin sons' Boy Scout troop. I have been their honorary uncle since they were born, and I love the outdoors, so of course I said "sure". There was one pro forma technicality--I had to watch an online training video and afterwards take an online test regarding it. No sweat, I did it. Now I'm "certified", or something like that.

However, the video itself seriously creeped me out. Most of it was geared to the prevention of sexual abuse, although there was also a minor theme regarding bullying prevention. I appreciate the dangers of both and am glad that the Scouts are taking these issues seriously, but there was nothing else. Nothing about all the other responsibilities involved in shepherding a bunch of teen and pre-teen boys. Nothing (so far as I can recall) regarding drugs and alcohol. Nothing about physical safety. Nothing about Scouts' possible medical issues. Not even anything about providing a good example. I was a Scout as a boy. I had a good troop. I'm quite sure we didn't have the big issues that that video warned against. For that, I am truly grateful. But I'm also damn glad that wasn't all the men involved in my troop were thinking about.

#4 LFC

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 02:26 PM

 Rue Bella, on 25 September 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Wow... hundreds of cases? I knew there were some, but not that many. But as they say, if one is attracted to kids, go to where the kids are.

Yeeeeaaaahhh, it looks like "hundreds" is at least an order of magnitude off. If what I saw on the news crawler this AM is true it's at least two orders of magnitude off with known cases stretching way back. Here's some of the figures. The part of the article preceding this concerns the multiple tidal waves of lawsuits the organization is facing. I suspect this could potentially destroy the organization.

Quote

Since the 1920s, the Boy Scouts have been compiling “ineligible files,” which list adult volunteers considered to pose a risk of child molestation. About 5,000 of these files have been made public as a result of court action; others remain confidential.

Delimarkos said when any BSA volunteer is added to the database for suspected abuse, “they are reported to law enforcement, removed entirely from any Scouting program and prohibited from re-joining anywhere.”

Minnesota-based attorney Jeff Anderson, who had led many lawsuits against the Catholic Church, released a court deposition in New York on Tuesday in which an expert hired by the Boy Scouts said she tallied 7,819 individuals in the “ineligible files” as of January, as well as 12,254 victims.

Anderson expressed hope that litigation triggered by New York’s new Child Victims Act would increase pressure on the Boy Scouts to make public more of the still-confidential files.

Some of the files were ordered released after a 2010 sexual abuse case in Portland, Oregon, that led to a nearly $20 million judgment against the Boy Scouts on behalf of a man molested by a Scout leader in the 1980s.

Paul Mones, the plaintiff’s lawyer in that case, said there are no overall figures on Boy Scout abuse settlements because the details are kept confidential.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

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#5 LFC

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 11:29 AM

The Boy Scouts of America has filed for bankruptcy due to the legal costs of their long, long litany of sexual abuse and rape scandals.

Quote

The Boy Scouts of America has been forced to file for bankruptcy following a surge in legal costs over its handling of sex-abuse cases. The Boy Scouts reportedly holds internal files that detail decades of allegations involving almost 8,000 “perpetrators,” and former scouts have come forward in recent months to identify hundreds of other alleged abusers. According to The New York Times, the bankruptcy filing may disrupt continuing litigation and set a deadline for when ex-scouts can pursue claims. “If you’ve ever considered coming forward, now is the time,” said Tim Kosnoff, a lawyer who works on Boy Scouts cases. Jim Turley, national chairman of Boy Scouts of America, said the organization was entering bankruptcy to help it compensate victims through a trust. “I want you to know that we believe you, we believe in compensating you, and we have programs in place to pay for counseling for you and your family,” he said. The move follows the lead of Catholic dioceses and USA Gymnastics, which have also entered bankruptcy protection after facing sexual-abuse lawsuits.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#6 Rue Bella

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 12:17 PM

Quote

Delimarkos said when any BSA volunteer is added to the database for suspected abuse, “they are reported to law enforcement, removed entirely from any Scouting program and prohibited from re-joining anywhere.”

Unlike the Catholic Church who just moved abusers from one parish to the next.

Small consolation to all the abused boys.
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#7 LFC

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 01:59 PM

It seems to me that these organizations follow a similar pattern.

1) Complaints are buried.

2) Complaints become too public to be buried so they say it's "a few bad apples" and they've dealt with it.

3) Complaints increase, become even more public, and they really "take it seriously."

4) Complaints continue to increase, victims shout "ENOUGH!", sue the f*** out of them, but they figure out if they can weather it.

5) They can't weather it and now the lawsuits will destroy the organization so they whine, "Why do you feel the need to destroy all the good?"


It seems that only when complete and total destruction is imminent do they suddenly start doing something because they've now had every other path of lesser resistance taken away from them.

And the answer to that last question is "Because your organization fostered criminal evil for so long that there's no reason to believe you'll clean things up from within."
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#8 Practical Girl

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 09:36 PM

Yes. If it is all-male and exclusive, it can't be good.
Every woman needs a blowtorch.
---Julia Child


--- On September 17, 1787, as Benjamin Franklin was leaving the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention, at Independence Hall, in Philadelphia, a woman called out to him, saying, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?”
“A republic,” Franklin said, “if you can keep it.”


--- LFC, on Gorsuch ruling: "Awesome. A Christianist who swore an oath to uphold the laws of the nation and bore false witness when he did it"

--- "Write hard and clear about what hurts"
Ernest Hemingway

#9 Rue Bella

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 09:44 PM

Spare a thought for the pedophiles.. where will they go now?
What is wrong with these people? ~ PG

California Secession - Let my people go!

#10 AnBr

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 10:28 PM

 Rue Bella, on 18 February 2020 - 12:17 PM, said:

Unlike the Catholic Church who just moved abusers from one parish to the next.

Small consolation to all the abused boys.

But at least steps have been taken in an attempt to prevent further abuses of yet more boys.
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1995


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On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


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#11 Rue Bella

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 11:01 PM

 AnBr, on 18 February 2020 - 10:28 PM, said:

But at least steps have been taken in an attempt to prevent further abuses of yet more boys.

Yes, because after decades of hiding the problem, they were forced to.

There are many good people in the Catholic Church who have been appalled at what had been going on, but didn't know. A good number left too.

Some people call the Catholic Church a religion. But it's more of a self-sustaining business. It employs millions around the world, and has vast holdings. To keep the coffers full, it has to keep fannies in the seats and donations coming in. They've been successful at that for centuries. To be that successful, they have had to change enough to keep followers happy and turning out Sunday mornings. And one of those recent changes has been to crack down on the pedophiles, though it did take them awhile.
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#12 Beelzebuddy

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 11:30 AM

 Practical Girl, on 18 February 2020 - 09:36 PM, said:

Yes. If it is all-male and exclusive, it can't be good.
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#13 HockeyDon

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 11:41 AM

 Rue Bella, on 18 February 2020 - 09:44 PM, said:

Spare a thought for the pedophiles.. where will they go now?
Posted Image
Well, fuck.

How can I be expected to distinguish BS from reality when so much of my reality is utter BS?!

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:16 PM

 AnBr, on 18 February 2020 - 10:28 PM, said:

But at least steps have been taken in an attempt to prevent further abuses of yet more boys.

Speaking from my experience as a "senior" Scout leader in our district (Council Commissioner), I can assure you we did everything humanely possible to insure the safety of our boys. No one leader outings, no sharing a tent (unless you're a parent). Plenty of talks to the kids about safety, go out in pairs or more, no "secret" initiation rites. etc. Sadly, stuff keeps happening, not just in Scouting, but in almost any organization with kids and adults.

Too may times things have been swept under the rug or the person is "asked" to depart.

My point being there's plenty of adults who don't want to see any child get hurt. Our Council was very conscious of the safety of the kids. Can't paint everyone with the same broad brush.
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#15 AnBr

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:31 PM

 HockeyDon, on 20 February 2020 - 11:41 AM, said:

Posted Image

That's so... Fargo of you.
“Trump’s a stupid man’s idea of a smart person, a poor man’s idea of a rich person & a weak man’s idea of a strong man.”

— Fran Lebowitz


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

— Carl Sagan


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#16 LFC

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:39 PM

 andydp, on 20 February 2020 - 12:16 PM, said:

Sadly, stuff keeps happening, not just in Scouting, but in almost any organization with kids and adults.

This is just going to happen with humans. You can improve the situation but there's no way to 100% safeguard children.


Quote

Too may times things have been swept under the rug or the person is "asked" to depart.

This is the entire point. None of these organizations is a secret pedophile ring run out of the Vatican, the BSA headquarters, or even Hillary's favorite pizza place. They do, however, all suffer from way too much leadership that values the reputation of the organization above all else. Sure they try to justify their cowardice in any number of ways but it all comes down to refusing to do the right thing. The predators take notice and waddya' know, more incidents because leadership did way too much to make their organization a safe haven, even that wasn't their intended goal.


Quote

My point being there's plenty of adults who don't want to see any child get hurt. Our Council was very conscious of the safety of the kids. Can't paint everyone with the same broad brush.

This is reminiscent of the "I'm not crazy about the Catholic Church but I love my parish priest" viewpoint that came up quite a bit as the scandals really starting exploding. And for sure there were / are good priests. But when you step back a bit and look at magnitude it can make you wonder how the hell it happened without an enormous number of people being complicit.

For the Catholic Church child rape scandals you see that it's not just in Vatican City but in virtually every country with a large Catholic presence. Maybe you look at the U.S. which is a big country but then realize it was in every state. Then you start looking at a few states and realize it's often been in multiple dioceses. At that point you realize you just took a major hit to the forehead from a 2x4 that says "THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE KNEW!!!" How do you make a case for the continued existence of such an organization? After a long track record you can say "THIS time will be different" but will it really?
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#17 MSheridan

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 06:35 PM

I was a Scout. Thankfully, my troop was great. I have also been involved with the Scouting troop a couple of nephews are in since they joined (although now that they've Eagled and aged out, I don't know that I'll continue).

For years, there was no guidance from the organization. Then, suddenly, a few years back they required Youth Protection Training for adults involved in Scouting. I'll admit it creeped me out the first time I took it, because it was so very heavily and obviously oriented toward protecting the kids from predators, with a secondary anti-bullying emphasis. Not that either of those things is remotely bad or that I had a problem with either of them, but I remember thinking at the time that there was a lot more to being an adult volunteer than not being a predator and knowing that bullying should be stopped. I mean, there was NOTHING regarding drug use, racism, misogyny, homophobia, appropriate speech, or even the best ways to encourage Scout self-sufficiency (I have no idea if this was always true, but nowadays the ideal Scout troop is considered to be boy-led). I've had to renew my training several times, and that narrow focus has continued to be true.

#18 Rue Bella

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 08:22 PM

Quote

"THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE KNEW!!!"

When I went to a Catholic grade school, we went on a trip to hear a choir presentation at a local seminary for priests. I was about 13 years old? At the time, all us students were seriously told to stick together, don't wander off, etc. Even at the time, the degree of warning was odd and something I took note of. Like, what was going to happen if someone were to wander off...

You'd also think that in the 10 years or so I went to parochial schools in this city, there would have been more than one trip to that seminary to hear their choir.

Turns out years later that seminary was exposed as a hotbed (no pun intended) for pedophilia. It's closed now, but even back then I think they knew. How could they not? The priests in our school were of the same order (Franciscan) as the seminary.


ps, I think most Catholics and Catholic priests, and most individuals involved with the Boy Scouts are good people trying to live their lives.
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#19 LFC

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 10:07 AM

View PostMSheridan, on 20 February 2020 - 06:35 PM, said:

For years, there was no guidance from the organization. Then, suddenly, a few years back they required Youth Protection Training for adults involved in Scouting.

And if this had been step 1 from my list above everything would have been great. People would have understood that a predator (or a few predators) appeared, law enforcement was brought in immediately, real steps were being taken to keep it from ever happening again, and everybody in the organization knew that the top brass took the problem very seriously. The predators would know in an instant that this group was not a safe zone for them to stalk their victims. I'm glad it's finally happening in the Scouts (though I'm less sure about the actual commitment of the Catholic Church) but it should never have taken the rapes of hundreds of children plus public exposure to get there.


View PostRue Bella, on 20 February 2020 - 08:22 PM, said:

ps, I think most Catholics and Catholic priests, and most individuals involved with the Boy Scouts are good people trying to live their lives.

Absolutely. Unfortunately now that there is a nasty skank all over these organizations I'm sure there are many good people who would have done so many good things for others now deciding that it's better if they just don't get involved at all. The powers that be that tried to "protect" an organization through secrecy end up destroying it instead once its exposed to sunlight. It's sad but it just keeps happening. Penn State, Rep. Jim Jordan and Ohio State, multiple Olympic training facilities, multiple churches, and the list goes on. The only solution is to make the potential cost of coverup so much higher than the perceived cost of dealing with the situation. Suddenly the risk calculations shift pretty quickly.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#20 LFC

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 04:26 PM

Posted Image
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer





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