18 replies to this topic

[George Rowell]

If you want to read the tea leaves there is an internal war going on in China to oust Xi Ji Ping. In recent days there has been much posted on line that has not been censored, which is unusual but the big one is people are submitting posts and even articles saying that something is terribly wrong at the Wuhan P4 biological facility. In a police state that is simply reckless. Zerohedge published the name (and telephone number) of the scientist hired last September to work on latent coronavirus in bats and WAPO published another one so that is common knowledge, the interesting thing is the Chinese article is still on line, detailing the facility and challenging the official cause of the outbreak.

To Xi Ji Pings enemies it does not matter if the coronavirus was released from the Wuhan lab or not, it is useful ammunition to challenge the new "Emperor".

Wapo has reported that possible counter rumors have been placed on line by the Chinese government blaming the US for releasing the virus.

A footnote. SARS has escaped from Beijing labs (corrected) repeatedly according to Nature. OK, that is confidence building.

https://www.nature.c...thogens-1.21487

.

[Traveler]

Got any links to those articles and posts? This is interesting. I find the animal source far more credible though. Just from tracking the epidemiology starting at the market.

[Bact PhD]

Traveler, on 04 February 2020 - 01:51 PM, said:

Got any links to those articles and posts? This is interesting. I find the animal source far more credible though. Just from tracking the epidemiology starting at the market.

Agreed re the need for citations. Even the added note to the linked Nature article from 2017 calls reports of a lab release "unverified", saying "...no evidence that [a lab release] is true..."

I found the Nature article interesting on a couple of points.[1] On the one hand, having a suitably-equipped reference laboratory in relatively close proximity to the epicenter of a number of these recent outbreaks should facilitate research on the genetics, proteomics, and immunology of these viruses. I can envision field screenings, especially in places where human and animal viruses are likely to intermix, being facilitated. However, I find myself agreeing with the concerns of Trevan from CHROME in Maryland:

Quote

...an open culture is important to keeping BSL-4 labs safe, and he questions how easy this will be in China, where society emphasizes hierarchy. “Diversity of viewpoint, flat structures where everyone feels free to speak up and openness of information are important,” he says.

...as well as those of Ebright from Rutgers (emphasis mine):

Quote

Ebright is not convinced of the need for more than one BSL-4 lab in mainland China. He suspects that the expansion there is a reaction to the networks in the United States and Europe, which he says are also unwarranted. He adds that governments will assume that such excess capacity is for the potential development of bioweapons.
[snip]
The prospect of ramping up opportunities to inject monkeys with pathogens also worries, rather than excites, him: “They can run, they can scratch, they can bite.”

[2]

[1]DISCLOSURE: I worked in a BL-3 facility for a hot minute early in my career; never a BL-4. The new facility, which opened during that hot minute, was quite the operation.
[2]That's no lie about the monkeys.

[George Rowell]

Traveler, on 04 February 2020 - 01:51 PM, said:

Got any links to those articles and posts? This is interesting. I find the animal source far more credible though. Just from tracking the epidemiology starting at the market.

Below is a link that names the scientist who was hired last September at the Wuhan P4 bio-warfare labs. His advertised post was investigation of latent corona virus in bats. You will recall that the latest analysis of the virus shows that it is definitely sequenced from bats.

Now if every city in China had a P4 facility researching corona virus in bats then it would not be a coincidence but Wuhan is the only such facility in China and it is 20 clicks from the live animal market. That is one hell of a coincidence. Add to that that the ground zero victim had not been to the market neither had any of the people he had contacted. In fact 10 of the first 30 had no established contact with the live market.

This rings with Bact's comments about openness in a regime and a culture that will use any excuse to put people down for political and personal reasons it makes sense to stay quiet and not let people get a hold on you. I cannot say that in my experience I have witnessed this myself but I am not at that level either.

I understand that TRS by and large poo poos Zerohedge and similar news outlets but it consistently publishes news that others avoid. As it stands today I believe these fringe sources are the only remaining news sources to relay sensitive news. You know my views on this.

Bugger it, I did make a reference to the WAPO article about SARS escaping but I could not find it, however I did find a more authoritative source, the W.H.O. in an update dating 2004. See next post. Wen has the link to the Chinese article and I am working on that but it is google translate job. I will post it when I get it.

[i]Incidentally I don't find this stuff using Duckduck go, Msn, Google, Startpage or the other sanitized search engines which only give hits on sensitive issues when you type in the full data including essentially what you want to know, and sometimes not even then.




https://www.zerohedg...avirus-pandemic

[George Rowell]

Authoritative source on escape of SARS. WHO update dated 2004

China reports additional SARS cases - update

23 April 2004

The Chinese Ministry of Health has today reported an additional three cases of SARS, including one death. This brings the current number of persons with a clinical illness compatible with SARS in China to four.
Chinese authorities have reported a diagnosis of clinically confirmed SARS coronavirus infection in two of these persons. These are the 20-year-old nurse in Beijing, reported yesterday, who remains in intensive care, and a 26-year-old female laboratory researcher, from Anhui Province. During two weeks in March, the researcher worked at the Chinese National Institute of Virology in Beijing, which is part of China’s Center for Disease Control. This institute is known to be engaged in research involving the SARS coronavirus. She developed symptoms on 25 March and was attended, while in a Beijing hospital, by the nurse. Her mother also provided bedside care.
The mother became ill in Anhui on 8 April and died on 19 April. Her clinical symptoms were compatible with SARS, and health authorities have retrospectively diagnosed her as a suspected SARS case.
The fourth person is a 31-year-old male laboratory researcher who also worked at the Beijing virology institute. He developed symptoms on 17 April and was hospitalized in isolation on 22 April. Health authorities have diagnosed him as a suspected SARS case.
In line with WHO definitions of SARS coronavirus infections, WHO has classified two of these persons, the 20-year-old nurse and the 26-year-old laboratory researcher, as probable cases of SARS. The two additional persons remain under investigation; further laboratory tests are being conducted by Chinese authorities.

https://www.who.int/.../2004_04_23/en/

[George Rowell]

Traveler, on 04 February 2020 - 01:51 PM, said:

Got any links to those articles and posts? This is interesting. I find the animal source far more credible though. Just from tracking the epidemiology starting at the market.

Here is the Chinese link. Open it in google and use google translate. It says the corona-virus is a man made disaster and it is still available on wechat. The interesting thing is the wechat notice has a censor warning on it but as of this moment it can still be reached anyway. That is highly unusual. The article starts out:-

Xu Bo: I am reporting in real name. This is a man-made disaster caused by genetically modified viruses.

At noon today, I am afraid of seriousness. At noon today, the chairman of TOY Network Xu Bo posted a report of his real name with reliable evidence as a clue to report to the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The outbreak of virus experimental animals led to the 2019 new coronavirus epidemic, Xu Bo said that based on the following facts and evidence as clues, he decided to report to the country ---

https://drive.google...jD85r8jny8r38rY
Above my translated version

https://www.chainnew...62509315812.htm
original

'Fake' or not, it is still available on wechat.

[George Rowell]

Bact PhD, on 04 February 2020 - 04:50 PM, said:

Agreed re the need for citations. "unverified", saying "...no evidence

[1]DISCLOSURE: I worked in a BL-3 facility for a hot minute early in my career; never a BL-4. The new facility, which opened during that hot minute, was quite the operation.
[2]That's no lie about the monkeys.

Agreed about citations. The zerohedge link details the advertisement placed for that scientists position in the Bat Virus Infection and Immunization Group. Also note the authoritative W.H.O document I found detailing previous escaped SARS virus in Beijing.
https://www.zerohedg...avirus-pandemic

https://www.nature.c...nsQWsftDU5EVQDY

Incidentally for a brief moment I too worked in a lab working on allergies. When I commented that I was pleased to be helping humanity in such a way I was told the funding was only forthcoming because the results could be used for bio warfare.

[indy]

If I had to choose between Fox, Drudge, Zerohedge, and Paltrow's goop stuff for information, I'd pick drudge and fox first by about a mile. Then I'd just flip a coin to decide the final two.

[indy]

BTW, twitter banned zerohedge permanently for promoting this particular article in their twitter feed.

[George Rowell]

indy, on 05 February 2020 - 07:18 AM, said:

BTW, twitter banned zerohedge permanently for promoting this particular article in their twitter feed.

Zerohedge gave the out the scientists telephone number. Definitely OTT.

[indy]

They are willing to advertise the name and phone number of some poor guy they connect to an outbreak with the potential to cause medical and economic calamity based on PURE speculation---not a single bit of proof, just proximity in time and space---and you find that sort of thing illuminating, and worthy of recommending that people read?

Fine, you're anti-establishment and believe that news comes with an agenda that isn't always honest and above board in what they report. I agree with you there. However, it's not a zero sum game. It may detract from them but it doesn't automatically add to the credibility of 'alternative' information.

[George Rowell]

indy, on 05 February 2020 - 07:47 AM, said:

They are willing to advertise the name and phone number of some poor guy they connect to an outbreak with the potential to cause medical and economic calamity based on PURE speculation---not a single bit of proof, just proximity in time and space---and you find that sort of thing illuminating, and worthy of recommending that people read?

Fine, you're anti-establishment and believe that news comes with an agenda that isn't always honest and above board in what they report. I agree with you there. However, it's not a zero sum game. It may detract from them but it doesn't automatically add to the credibility of 'alternative' information.

I think it was disgusting that they released the scientist's telephone number and I have already told you that it was OTT. But connecting the dots means you have to research all sites even if you do not like their ethics. And that is where getting an overall picture comes in, you have to read all views to recognize manipulation. News is the end part of a historical thread and if it cannot be analysed in that context it is suspicious. In the same vein you can get a pretty good idea what is about to come next.

What news service today can almost be guaranteed to not publish fake stories, well RT because unlike all the rest they would be forced to close down in a week if they did, thanks to all those new government departments set up in the EU to check the authenticity of the press. Go crackers on that one.

I am absolutely NOT anti-establishment. We have roads, police, law courts, electricity, cars and security which only come with a stable establishment. Actually what I hate is the easy way in which they manipulate people - even although I believe it to be quite necessary, surprise. I just wish it had to be harder. People are so easily fooled. You made a comment recently about conspiracy theorists, and my name came to mind. It was aimed at me yes? Perhaps my posts on the Douma chemical attack. Well take a look at what has happened there. It has been reported by the two OPCW whistle blowers that the whole of the team that went to Douma that made the original report were of the opinion that no chemical attack had happened at all. No doubt you consider that my posts regarding 'selective news coverage' also mean I am a conspiracy theorist. Well where is the news on this bombshell? The whole bloody team think the attack was faked. Where is it? Is it not worthy news? I knew that long before it became obvious that it was faked based on reading news from all sources. Who here has been manipulated? If I have you all wrong then I humbly apologize, but I am right am I not?

Neither does disagreeing with folks and saying the government are liars make me anti-establishment, it makes me a concerned citizen, part of the push-back that keeps our democracy in check. If there were not heaps of people like me I would get worried.

[George Rowell]

https://www.theguard...-sweeping-china

This well known academic has openly gone up against the government and Xi Jinping. He may get away with it for now.

[LFC]

The WHO is shutting down its investigation into the hypothesis that the Covid-19 virus escaped a lab in Wuhan due to lack of evidence. It appears no specific evidence has ever been produced, just "associations" which are a primary tool of conspiracy theorists and the right-wing noise machine.

Quote

World Health Organization investigators said Tuesday that they would no longer pursue research into whether the coronavirus leaked from a lab in Wuhan, China.

Peter Ben Embarek, a food safety and animal diseases expert, announced the decision during a press conference to wrap up a visit by an international team of WHO experts to the city where COVID-19 was first identified in December 2019.

Embarek said there was not enough evidence to support a hypothesis that the virus escaped from a Chinese biosafety laboratory in Wuhan – the Wuhan Institute of Virology – and that the WHO stood by its previous determination that COVID-19 most likely entered the human population through an intermediate animal.

The WHO team has spent several weeks on a fact-finding mission in Wuhan. Experts from 10 nations have visited hospitals, research institutes and a wildlife market tied to the outbreak. However, the WHO's fieldwork and other activities in Wuhan have been closely monitored by Chinese officials and security officers, and Beijing has repeatedly resisted called for a completely independent investigation into the origins of the virus.

"Did we change dramatically the picture we had beforehand? I don’t think so," said Embarek, a Danish national who spoke on behalf of the WHO delegation during the press conference Tuesday. "Did we improve our understanding? Did we add details to that picture? Absolutely."

No evidence has emerged to support suggestions that the coronavirus originated from a virology lab in Wuhan.

The theory stems from circumstantial evidence from several disparate sources, including repeated assertions from former President Donald Trump and his political backers, who never cited specific evidence. Speculation also emerged due to the Wuhan Institute of Virology's relative proximity to the wildlife market in Wuhan where some of the first cases of the virus were traced. A number of high-profile commentators have also noted that the Wuhan Institute of Virology is China's most advanced biosafety lab and is known for its work researching coronaviruses in bats.

[baw1064]

While I believe the overwhelming evidence is that this virus is naturally-occurring, the public health measures which are used for control of a virus are pretty much the same regardless of its source.

In other words, we've just demonstrated to anyone out there contemplating attacking us with an engineered bio-weapon that we're completely unprepared.

[golden_valley]

baw1064, on 09 February 2021 - 02:56 PM, said:

While I believe the overwhelming evidence is that this virus is naturally-occurring, the public health measures which are used for control of a virus are pretty much the same regardless of its source.

In other words, we've just demonstrated to anyone out there contemplating attacking us with an engineered bio-weapon that we're completely unprepared.

The US has no adequate public health infrastructure. It's starved of money.

[Traveler]

Take out that 20% overhead, and things begin to look a lot better. Toss in removing PE from buying practices and milking them dry, and you might make some progress.

[George Rowell]

Unless you live in Alaska there seems to be less money to go around and more scrutiny for infrastructure projects. Investors avoid 5-10 year plans like the plague and who can blame them.

[baw1064]

 George Rowell, on 19 February 2021 - 09:43 PM, said:

Unless you live in Alaska there seems to be less money to go around and more scrutiny for infrastructure projects. Investors avoid 5-10 year plans like the plague and who can blame them.

In a pandemic a 5-10 year plan is liable to be way past your time horizon.