61 replies to this topic

[J-CA]

 LFC, on 24 September 2019 - 03:30 AM, said:

I imagine people being able to grasp the difference between a classic stage production and Donald Trump rather than being in a constant state of being offended by everything. Too much to ask I guess.

The experience I was outlining was most certainly not an experience of "being in a constant state of being offended by everything" it is being in a state of worrying about where you fit in within your community. I am reflecting the lived experience of people I know, their genuine feelings, not made up outrage.

The lack of empathy being displayed here is disappointing.

[LFC]

 J-CA, on 24 September 2019 - 09:31 AM, said:

The lack of empathy being displayed here is disappointing.

Empathy and reason should be able to exist together but for some they do not. You've now clearly stated that any white person must be stopped from making themselves up to have darker features because they could trigger somebody to remember "about the kids in town that threw a banana in my yard one day, the ones that made monkey noises at my kids when they were walking down the street." Congratulations. You win the Empathy Award by moving to a new level of ridiculousness where if we can find a even a few individuals from any group with a legitimate fear who is triggered by something then we must change that something to get that last 1% of the bell curve of being offended. It's the Washington Redskins all over again. The majority of Native Americans didn't get the memo that they were supposed to be offended.

I've actually had discussions on things like this over decades with multiple in-laws, friends, and co-workers who are not white. They all seem to grasp how the good can easily devolve into the silly. I would bet big money that if I brought this example to them they would have no trouble grasping the difference between "Othello" and "Step and Fetch It." YMMV.

[J-CA]

I find where you have taken this discussion to be quite genuinely disheartening though not surprising.

[golden_valley]

There is honest difference of views here, about a subject that I suspect most of us have no lived experience with. I can try to imagine what it is like; as a female and as a non Jew living in a Jewish family I might have the faintest inkling of what it's like because of hearing about it. But really only by asking the affected people can we really understand what to do and not do.

[D. C. Sessions]

 LFC, on 24 September 2019 - 09:50 AM, said:

I would bet big money that if I brought this example to them they would have no trouble grasping the difference between "Othello" and "Step and Fetch It." YMMV.

I would honestly like to hear what they think on the topic. My close-enough-to-ask list of acquaintances lately runs to only one African American and that's just a wee small set. Plenty other POCs but the specific point -- Othello -- is, I think, pretty specific.

[LFC]

 D. C. Sessions, on 24 September 2019 - 06:34 PM, said:

I would honestly like to hear what they think on the topic. My close-enough-to-ask list of acquaintances lately runs to only one African American and that's just a wee small set. Plenty other POCs but the specific point -- Othello -- is, I think, pretty specific.

The wife's reaction, as predicted, was a pretty quick "O...M...G." accompanied with a face that could best be interpreted as an exasperated eye roll. She was the same way with Trudeau's Aladdin costume. She views it all as bullshit that gets in the way of concentrating on real racism which is, clearly, resurgent in this country. People not directly involved in an issue often have a limited attention span. If you flood it with chickenshit then to them the issue is chickenshit. If you stick to the serious problems there's a better chance they'll respect the seriousness of the situation. And don't get her started on Al Sharpton. She's loathed him ever since the Tawana Brawley scam and for the same reasons. She views him as having done more to set back racial equality through his grandstanding than helping it.

My wife is VERY pro BLM and Colin Kaepernick (as am I) since she knows what real racism looks like. The opinions I hold today have been very much molded by the experiences of her, her family, and some of our friends. For example when I see BLM bashing on FB I get pretty pissed off. My wife's nephew served as a detective and a federal agent working some of the most dangerous things you can do like narcotics, fugitives, and counter-terrorism. Meanwhile he's been pulled over multiple times for DWB (driving while black). In fact the term was actually used by some officers ("jokingly", of course) where he was stationed as a detective. I've ask these white males posting crap memes (and they're ALWAYS white males) how do they think they'd react if they or their son was pulled over multiple times just for the way they looked. If they were pulled every year or so for their Confederate flag or NRA bumper sticker would that be OK? After all there's no reason to be angry if they aren't doing anything wrong, right? RIGHT? Ooooohhhh, if it effects YOU then it's a big deal. Got it. They usually just shut up but there's a few that try to tap dance with heavily lawyered answers when the fact is they really just want to say that it's common sense because blacks deserve it. As we've seen under Trump more of them feel comfortable saying that out loud now.

BTW we've both experienced (her more than I) racism from blacks as well. We had a few experiences (none confrontational) in our earlier days where blacks were clearly not happy about our interracial relationship, probably because she was smokin' hot with a model's body (as in killer, not an emaciated clothes hanger with limbs) and she's cute as all get out.

Fortunately the coming generations are a lot better on this. As I've pointed out to multiple people, especially those who until recently thought this was an ancient problem that my wife and I had been married for over 5 years before the majority of the county approved of interracial (white/black) marriage. Tell younger people that something happened in the 60s and that's pretty ancient history. Tell them it happened in the 90s and it gets a lot more real.




DC: I suspect we'll be heading up to see the new grand nephew pretty soon. (He's sooooo cute! Black, Irish, Native American, and Bolivian which itself has a strong Asian influence is quite the mix.) I'll try to remember to talk to the relatives that are there about this and report back.

[andydp]

I'm going to agree with your wife on this one. Othello is a character in a well known play that is a few hundred years old. No one with functioning neurons would consider an actor made up to look like a Moor would (or should) think its offensive.

Re the chicken crap: (AKA dumb issue) Some years ago Hispanic groups were complaining about "West Side Story" and its portrayal of (Shocking !!>) Hispanics !!

One of the complaints was the gang's nickname of "Sharks" saying it was degrading. If they had read the play they would have found out they called themselves because of their sharkskin suits.

[AnBr]

As valuable and needed as "political correctness" was and still is, directing it at the wrong target or applying disproportionate outrage only undermines its effectiveness and good. Just as the Me-Too movement is needed, judgement without verification based merely on an allegation (à la Al Franken) only serves to render the movement impotent and makes a woman's word doubted again. perspective and proportionality is required.

[D. C. Sessions]

 LFC, on 25 September 2019 - 10:17 AM, said:

DC: I suspect we'll be heading up to see the new grand nephew pretty soon. (He's sooooo cute! Black, Irish, Native American, and Bolivian which itself has a strong Asian influence is quite the mix.) I'll try to remember to talk to the relatives that are there about this and report back.

Thank you. When I came up with this Gedankenexperiment it was a spur-of-the-moment notion, but the longer it goes the better I like it.

[LFC]

This is what it means to be a "conservative" these days. Rod Dreher, who is admittedly a bug-eyed religious zealot, has now written two clear-eyed pieces on just how bad this whole Ukraine scandal really is and how it's anti-American corruption at its worst. And then he writes a piece called ‘Vote For The Crook. It’s Important’. He is publicly twisting himself in knots to justify why he might vote for Trump anyway. At least he admits it but it really puts his so-called religious principles into the worst light possible. They basically count for nothing. This is what you get when you have a screeching moralizer who is in a complete panic about losing the ability to play that game with relative impunity. He even finds the pushback from those who find his morals to be immoral as an attack. When you play the perpetual victim you can justify anything. Or to repeat the Voltaire quote I like so much, "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities"

Quote

One of the more annoying aspects of right-wing discourse in the age of Trump is how many Trump partisans meet any criticism of their man with a sheep-like accusation of “Trump Derangement Syndrome” or “Orange Man Bad.” It’s the right-wing equivalent of Social Justice Warriors shrieking “Bigot!” whenever some speaks ill of a favored ethnic or sexual minority.

I think Trump is crooked, without question. Do I know for sure that he violated any laws? No. By “crooked,” I mean that he is not a man who cares about the law, either the legal code or the moral law. I think Bill Clinton was crooked too, by the way. I’m talking about the fundamental orientation of the man toward the law. Donald Trump is a disgrace.

But it still might be important to vote for him. Let me explain.

In Britain today, the Labour Party, in its annual conference, committed itself to extending voting rights to all foreign nationals living in the UK. That, and to open the borders for “free movement.” (I wrote about it here.) That means that if Labour takes power, it will effectively dissolve Britain as a nation.

Now, you may think that Tory PM Boris Johnson is a boob. But if you are any kind of British patriot, you have to do whatever it takes to keep Labour from taking power and dissolving the nation. That might mean a Liberal Democratic vote in the next general election, but it certainly means voting in whatever way stands the best chance of keeping Jeremy Corbyn out of No. 10 — even if it means voting for Boris Johnson.

This is an example of the principle of Vote For The Crook: It’s Important. To be clear, I don’t think Boris Johnson is a crook, but he is an example of a deeply flawed politician for whom one must vote to forestall a much worse fate than being governed by him.

This is something we Louisiana voters know from our 1991 governor’s race. It pitted former Gov. Edwin W. Edwards, who was legendarily crooked, against former and unrepentant Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke. The entire GOP leadership denounced Duke. Lots of people, conservatives included, put this sticker on their car (I did too):



It was funny, but the point was a serious one: Edwin Edwards (who eventually went to prison in the late 1990s for bribery) was plainly a crook, but his crookedness was less harmful to the state than a Duke governorship would be. The bumper sticker was an emblem of despair over the state of Louisiana’s politics. It’s hard to express strongly enough how much both conservatives and good-government liberals despised Edwin Edwards. He was, and remains, a clever man, but also a symbol of good ol’ boy Louisiana political corruption. To find oneself in a position to have to vote for EWE because that was the only way to keep a Klucker out of the governor’s mansion was revolting. I can remember to this day standing in the voting booth and pulling the lever for Edwards — something I never, ever imagined doing.

But it was important. Edwards won in a landslide. Even people who hated the man knew they had to put the interests of the common good over their personal revulsion.

As regular readers know, I did not vote in the 2016 presidential race (it didn’t matter; my state was heavily pro-Trump), but if I end up voting for Trump in 2020, it’ll be a VFTC:II thing.

It’s easy to see how Trump is analogous to EWE (though unlike Trump, EWE was quite competent). But how can the 2020 Democratic presidential candidates possibly be analogized in any way to David Duke?

[Bact PhD]

To quote LFC, Cheeses Cripes! Re that excerpt from Dreher.

At the risk of repeating myself, I was Bact GradStudent in Louisiana during the Duke vs. Edwards debacle. Among the cohorts of mine familiar with Louisiana politics (old-time faculty and a couple of born-and-bred students), it was NO contest whatsoever, period, full-stop.

Unless there’s some utter whackadoodle credibly up for the Dem nomination that I’m not aware of (I’m no Bernie fan, but I don’t question his competence or experience; I think we can agree Williamson isn’t credible), there is NO parallel to Louisiana in 1991.

I guess that crowd will tar whomever the nominee is with the brush of AOC, et al.

[LFC]

 Bact PhD, on 26 September 2019 - 06:42 PM, said:

Unless there’s some utter whackadoodle credibly up for the Dem nomination that I’m not aware of (I’m no Bernie fan, but I don’t question his competence or experience; I think we can agree Williamson isn’t credible), there is NO parallel to Louisiana in 1991.

You don't understand. Christians are under assault in this country. The liberals want to make it illegal for them to practice their religion. They want to be able to fire anybody with a religious belief they don't like such as gay marriage being evil. They want to crush them and make their ability to worship nearly impossible. No, this is not an exaggeration. This is what Dreher believes will happen if the Democrats take control of the government. They will come for him and all other believers with non-SJW beliefs. The funny thing is that he can never acknowledge that this is exactly what he and his ilk have done repeatedly throughout history. Maybe he does know this and thinks the left is just slobbering to take their revenge.

He also cannot comprehend that his beliefs could be viewed as immoral by others. There always has to be some other cause for why the left is so hateful. The concept that so many of us have now spoken, lived near, worked with, and befriended gay people and have come to the well thought out conclusion that there's no reason they shouldn't be allowed to marry is something he just can't wrap his head around. It's certainly something he's regularly confronted with in the comments but it never gets through. He can't grasp how anybody could have a system of morals and ethics without a religion telling them what it is.

As I said, he's certifiably nuts. But as I've said before when you visit TAC read Larison for the content and Dreher for the comments. There are actually quite a few excellent non-whackjob commenters on his threads. I wonder how many more have been banned.

[D. C. Sessions]

Dreher and those of like mind don't have room in their conceptual universe for any relationship other than dominance and submission.

[LFC]

 D. C. Sessions, on 27 September 2019 - 01:17 PM, said:

Dreher and those of like mind don't have room in their conceptual universe for any relationship other than dominance and submission.

As in "I've submitted to the One True God™. Now you must submit to me!"

[LFC]

Trump's "civil war" retweet has the armed, wingnut right getting all fired up. These asshats haven't the slightest clue that they are exactly the type of people the Founding Fathers would have called out the militias to confront. Their "patriotism" is a religion of self-righteousness, self-important, and utter cluelessness.

Quote

“We ARE on the verge of a HOT civil war,” the Twitter account for the Oath Keepers militia declared.

“Like in 1859,” it continued. “That’s where we are. And the Right has ZERO trust or respect for anything the left is doing. We see THEM as illegitimate too.” Trump supporters, the account added, “will NOT accept the results of a ‘successful’ impeachment as legitimate.”

The group is not a couple dozen preppers shooting guns in the woods, either. The Oath Keepers boasts thousands of members, many who are first responders, members of the military and veterans (hence the “oath” they swore to the Constitution). They have occupied American streets before, such as in Ferguson, where they carried military-style rifles and even monitored crowds from rooftops.

This is one of the faces of right-wing terrorism. As long as they stay well within the bounds of the law and remain non-violent (carrying their assault rifles metal penises and thumping their pathetic, self-important chests) that's fine but the instant they cross line and engage in violence they need to be taken down and fast by any means necessary. They are dangerous and not quite as pathetic as Trump's Nazis.

[LFC]

Two right-wing f***nuts are at it again. The level of stupid on the right just keeps going up and up.

Quote

“Go Cougars!” 2020 candidate Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) wrote in a seemingly innocuous tweet about her alma mater, University of Houston, on Thursday.

However, she just happened to post the tweet a mere hour after two breathtakingly inept pro-Trump activists unveiled what they claimed to be “bombshell evidence” of a steamy affair Warren allegedly had with a 24-year-old Marine.

Conservative figures Jacob Wohl and Jack Burkman, apparently having learned nothing after their schemes to drum up fake rape accusations against Robert Mueller and 2020 candidate Pete Buttigieg imploded spectacularly, announced that they would be holding a press conference on Thursday with a witness to 70-year-old Warren’s scandalous alleged sexual conquests.

Wohl and Burkman’s press release informed reporters that the two activists would be joined by a “decorated, former Marine and bodybuilder” who claims he was engaged in a “long-term sexual relationship with presidential candidate, Sen. Elizabeth Warren.”

“These charges will shock the conscious of the nation,” Burkman declared (confusingly) in the announcement.

But the “Elizabeth Warren: Cougar?” press conference (which featured fake sex scars and a witness who couldn’t keep a straight face while speaking) ended up being yet another exercise in self-humiliation, as Daily Beast reporter Will Sommer laid out in a Twitter thread:

Quote

And about an hour after the circus ended, Warren apparently felt compelled to show some school spirit.

“It’s always a good day to be reminded that I got where I am because a great education was available for $50 a semester at the University of Houston (go Cougars!),” Warren tweeted. “We need to cancel student debt and make college free for everyone who wants it.”

[Beelzebuddy]

Prime!

[LFC]

 LFC, on 24 September 2019 - 09:50 AM, said:

I've actually had discussions on things like this over decades with multiple in-laws, friends, and co-workers who are not white. They all seem to grasp how the good can easily devolve into the silly. I would bet big money that if I brought this example to them they would have no trouble grasping the difference between "Othello" and "Step and Fetch It." YMMV.

Visited the nephew-in-law. First, the new baby is soooo cute and really chill. At two months he apparently sleeps 3-5 hours at a clip and only wakes up to be fed. That's the second relatively easy baby in a row for them.

Long story short he rolled his eyes over the Othello and Aladdin examples. His take is that outrage over things like these takes people's eye off the real ball. As a law enforcement agent and a black male he's seen more than his share of the real ball.

[LFC]

This ain't 4chan or 8chan. This is at a pro-Trump group's conference held at Trump's Doral Club.

Quote

A recent pro-Trump conference at the President’s Doral, Florida resort included a grim parody video showing the President “killing” political opponents and media outlets.

On Friday, the same day that pro-Trump heavy hitters including Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis ®, Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-FL) and Donald Trump Jr. were scheduled to appear at the Trump National Doral Miami resort for a conference, a video of Trump massacring political figures and media outlets went unreported. The New York Times flagged the clip on Sunday.

In the video, a character with Trump’s face digitally superimposed over the original actor’s head is seen shooting, stabbing and impaling politicians including Rep. Adam Schiff (D-CA) and Sen. Mitt Romney (R-UT), and news outlets including BBC, The Hill and Talking Points Memo.

The original footage came from the film “Kingsman: The Secret Service.” In the altered version played at Trump’s resort, various media logos and politicians’ faces hover over the original characters. The scene takes place in the renamed “Church of Fake News.”

Dreher recoiled. The video can be seen at this link. A number of commenters didn't. As always "it's just a joke" despite the staggering number of violent right-wing attacks that have occurred this year in our nation. I wonder how funny they'd find a similar video of Congressional Republicans being shot up at, oh I don't know, maybe a softball game.

Quote

It’s horrifying. I don’t buy it when liberals roll their eyes when conservatives object to the extreme content of some rock and rap songs, and in the same way, I’m not going to take seriously the Trump supporters who say some version of, “It’s just a joke.”

You don’t joke about mass shootings. Not in a country that has them with some regularity. This has to be a strong taboo. I often write about how biased the US media are, but none of its sins and failings justify this kind of thing. Donald Trump is not directly responsible for this, but he encourages it all the time. Now, some of his supporters, at an event held in support of him, and at one of his properties, aired a humor video in which he commits lethal, gruesome violence on the media and his political opponents, including President Barack Obama.

He could denounce it, say that it’s not funny, that it crosses a line that should not be crossed in public discourse, not even in an attempt to be funny. He won’t do that, though.

There are many mass shooting events, sadly, but here are some recent ones involving houses of worship and, in one case, a newspaper. White supremacist Dylann Roof murdered nine black churchgoers a few years back. Then there was the 2017 mass shooting in a Texas church in which 26 people lost their lives; it was motivated not by politics, but by a domestic dispute. Last year we had the anti-Semite kill 11 people in the Pittsburgh synagogue — a shooting that was motivated by his white nationalism and Jew-hatred, but not by Trump, whom he had criticized as insufficiently racist. Also last year, a local lunatic invaded a Maryland newsroom and killed five people before cops took him in. That wasn’t a political act either; the nut had a long-running feud with the paper.

Here’s a link to the website for the Miami event. It looks like a standard #MAGAworld conference. The organizer told the Times that the video was screened as part of a “meme exhibit.” This screenshot from the online festival schedule must be what he was talking about:

Again: these are not things to joke about. When the left-wing comedian Kathy Griffin allowed herself to be photographed with a mock-up of Donald Trump’s severed head, people went nuts — understandably! — and she paid a professional price for it. Some things are beyond the pale. In this clip made by a Trump supporters, the president not only “kills” abstract representations of media organizations, but images of real people — politicians and celebrities — who are critics of Trump.

Do we need to see a “fun” clip in which the President of the United States kills his predecessor?

Here’s what I don’t get. There are some Evangelical leaders — including Jeffress, Graham, Falwell Jr., and others — who have access to the president. Why don’t they ever call him out over things like this? Trump’s campaign didn’t produce this vile video, but the culture his rhetoric creates trafficks in stuff like this.

[baw1064]

 LFC, on 14 October 2019 - 04:52 PM, said:

This ain't 4chan or 8chan. This is at a pro-Trump group's conference held at Trump's Doral Club.

What's the difference? Well, besides the average net worth of the participants.