64 replies to this topic

[LFC]

-- Thread for the Excesses of the Far Left --

Oh for f***'s sake. Trudeau dressed up as Aladdin for an "Arabian Nights" themed party in 2001 and put on brown makeup because, you know, Aladdin would have been F***ING BROWN! Now the left-wing offense squad is in full screech mode, Time magazine and the rest of the MSM seem to be in on the "scandal", and Trudeau is going along with it and doing the apology thing. This is too f***ing stupid for words.

Quote

At least three images have emerged in the past 24 hours that show Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau wearing racist makeup.

Trudeau acknowledged two of the incidents in a TIME Magazine piece published this week and apologized for the behavior, which he acknowledged was racist. TIME Magazine published two photos of separate times Trudeau wore brownface and blackface makeup.

One incident was during an “Arabian Nights” themed gala at a school at which he was teaching in 2001. In the photo, Trudeau is seen wearing a turban and robes with darkened makeup on his face, neck and hands. The image was published in the West Point Grey Academy 2000-2001 yearbook, where he was teaching at the time. A Vancouver businessman named Michael Adamson reportedly shared the photo with TIME because he felt it should be made public.

“I shouldn’t have done that. I should have known better and I didn’t. I’m really sorry,” Trudeau told TIME Magazine this week, which first reported on the photo.

When TIME asked if he thought the photo was racist, Trudeau said: “Yes it was. I didn’t consider it racist at the time, but now we know better.”

The other incident was in high school, when he wore blackface makeup to sing a Jamaican folk song.

“I deeply regret that I did that,” he told TIME of the blackface incident.

But a third image has surfaced of Trudeau wearing blackface since the TIME piece was published. Global News obtained a video that appears to show Trudeau wearing blackface makeup and sticking his tongue out. A senior Liberal Party official reportedly confirmed to Global News that the person in the video was Trudeau.

[Practical Girl]

See, though, all this hyper-focus on what people did when they were in a different time begets all of it. I wish, for once, that somebody would come out with an epic speech about this when they're "caught in the act". Talk about the why of it, in the time that it happened. "I'm sorry" is a good beginning, but it's quite time for somebody to talk about all of this. If it were just Aladdin, so much easier. Trying to be authentic. But the other stuff, quite unexplained.

I wish for Justin to grow a pair, and come out with it. He's serious about saying that he didn't see these acts as racist-at the time. Stop. Start there, and shred it. Explain the culture. Hell, everything gets to Canada 10 years late- why not racism?

I can't make light of blackface. Then again, it's an actual (proud) part of our own culture, within music way back when.

[Probabilistic]

Practical Girl, on 21 September 2019 - 12:35 PM, said:

I wish, for once, that somebody would come out with an epic speech about this when they're "caught in the act".

Trudeau could have easily said "I wore the costume ironically. I was so woke even then before it was a thing". Or, he could have said "Fuck you, Twitter". Both would have worked.

[J-CA]

It seems entirely appropriate that he apologized, blackface/brownface is bad. It is bad now, it was bad in 2001 and he should have known better then.
He has handled pretty much perfectly and anyone with a functioning brain that knows him as a public figure and Prime Minister is well aware of his conduct & policies regarding the ethnic minorities in Canada. That's why the whole thing will blow over.

There are a lot of interesting (but inconsequential) stories about the election: https://www.vice.com...ffice-in-canada

[D. C. Sessions]

A couple of summers ago, my daughter, her husband, and I (with the babe in arms, now much more mobile) attended a Shakespeare in the Park performance of Othello. A very small group of players, as it happens -- IIRC something like six altogether, three men and three women.

One of the women was fairly dark, but the men were all pretty pale (this was in Montana, don't be shocked.)

Should they:

• Have skipped that play for one that fit the cast's coloring?
  
• Played it w/o makeup (a bit confusing, considering that the Moor's color is a key part of the play)?
  
• Or made the fellow playing the Moor up to fit the role?

[golden_valley]

D. C. Sessions, on 21 September 2019 - 04:34 PM, said:

A couple of summers ago, my daughter, her husband, and I (with the babe in arms, now much more mobile) attended a Shakespeare in the Park performance of Othello. A very small group of players, as it happens -- IIRC something like six altogether, three men and three women.

One of the women was fairly dark, but the men were all pretty pale (this was in Montana, don't be shocked.)

Should they:

• Have skipped that play for one that fit the cast's coloring?
  
• Played it w/o makeup (a bit confusing, considering that the Moor's color is a key part of the play)?
  
• Or made the fellow playing the Moor up to fit the role?

Very good question. I don't think I have a perfect answer, but in light of Othello's race being essentially the point of the play it would make sense to make the actor look dark.

What about Al Jolson singing Mamie in black face? I'm much more unsure of my answer there. A Jewish guy singing a "black song" in black face. He kind of brought "black music" to white audiences though doing it in black face. I don't have an answer to that one.

[D. C. Sessions]

I love it when people answer "Tough question." Sure beats a knee jerk -- some problem don't have simple easy answers (cue Mencken.)

[J-CA]

D. C. Sessions, on 21 September 2019 - 04:34 PM, said:

One of the women was fairly dark, but the men were all pretty pale (this was in Montana, don't be shocked.)
Should they:

• Have skipped that play for one that fit the cast's coloring?
  
• Played it w/o makeup (a bit confusing, considering that the Moor's color is a key part of the play)?
  
• Or made the fellow playing the Moor up to fit the role?

Have skipped that play for one that fit the cast's coloring?
I think this is the ideal answer, it is not like there are a shortage of plays in the universe that can be performed. This reminds me of the issue of "no fraternization" policies at workplaces, people complain about them but like.. go find someone else to date or if the relationship is that important go get a different job. It is a pretty standard "broad benefits, narrow harms" policy situation, the trade off is probably worth it.

Played it w/o makeup (a bit confusing, considering that the Moor's color is a key part of the play)?
This is probably the second best answer, that skin colour is essential to the play does make for some seeming awkwardness, but everyone that attends Othello knows what the play is about and who Othello is. Would anyone in a modern audience actually enjoy a Shakespeare performance if they are not already familiar with the material? I count myself as pretty clever but there is no way I could enjoy watching a Shakespeare play that I had not read before, maybe a I would need a few times with some supporting material.

Or made the fellow playing the Moor up to fit the role?
Just don't do it, it is gross.

golden_valley, on 21 September 2019 - 05:29 PM, said:

What about Al Jolson singing Mamie in black face? I'm much more unsure of my answer there. A Jewish guy singing a "black song" in black face. He kind of brought "black music" to white audiences though doing it in black face. I don't have an answer to that one.

I feel like the closest thing to an answer is that it was wrong that he needed to do that to appease his audience, i.e. the primary fault lies with society, not Mr. Jolson.
I guess the next question is whether Jolson was trying to find a way to pry open a door of cultural access for genuine black talent that would come after him or if he was just opportunistically performing something to further his own career (i.e. it was just a gimmick and he should have just been doing something else instead).

[J-CA]

This Omer Aziz interview is really interesting:
http://www.cbc.ca/pl.../1606626883969/

This article covers the same territory but doesn't quite do Mr. Aziz's words complete justice:
https://www.cbc.ca/n...beral-1.5292084

[Rue Bella]

D. C. Sessions, on 21 September 2019 - 04:34 PM, said:

A couple of summers ago, my daughter, her husband, and I (with the babe in arms, now much more mobile) attended a Shakespeare in the Park performance of Othello. A very small group of players, as it happens -- IIRC something like six altogether, three men and three women.

One of the women was fairly dark, but the men were all pretty pale (this was in Montana, don't be shocked.)

Should they:

• Have skipped that play for one that fit the cast's coloring?
  
• Played it w/o makeup (a bit confusing, considering that the Moor's color is a key part of the play)?
  
• Or made the fellow playing the Moor up to fit the role?

What about all the fair skinned, light-haired, blue-eyed images of Jesus? Should Christians darken them up a bit to be more realistic, or just let them be? Is it equally unacceptable to portray a person lighter than he/she is/was as well?

[J-CA]

Rue Bella, on 22 September 2019 - 03:42 PM, said:

What about all the fair skinned, light-haired, blue-eyed images of Jesus? Should Christians darken them up a bit to be more realistic, or just let them be? Is it equally unacceptable to portray a person lighter than he/she is/was as well?

I think it is pretty easy to understand that if a contemporary artist portrayed a figure of veneration as whiter than they really were it would be rightly seen as an act of hostility against the ethnic group that person belonged to.
If you took MLK's image and decided to paint a new portrait of him and made him 5 shades lighter than he really was people would be completely justified in asking you what in the hell you think you are trying to accomplish with that representation. Jesus is a more complicated case because his "standard image" is so much a part of the popular culture that a new painting of Jesus that makes him look like he is a slightly underweight Bavarian woodworker is just par for the course.

[AnBr]

Reminds me of how Faux used to darken Obama's photo to make him appear darker than his actual color.

[Rue Bella]

When I was a kid too many decades ago, black face was also "par for the course". While I think some of the current negative reactions for 'past crimes' is a bit over the top, at some point, some sort of objection needs to be made to move the dial. And in the case of black face, things have indeed changed greatly for the better.

A lighter Jesus, and/or a darker Obama however is part of the same inaccurate perception by too many - that people with lighter complexions are more acceptable than those who are darker.

[LFC]

D. C. Sessions, on 21 September 2019 - 04:34 PM, said:

A couple of summers ago, my daughter, her husband, and I (with the babe in arms, now much more mobile) attended a Shakespeare in the Park performance of Othello. A very small group of players, as it happens -- IIRC something like six altogether, three men and three women. One of the women was fairly dark, but the men were all pretty pale (this was in Montana, don't be shocked.) Should they:

• Have skipped that play for one that fit the cast's coloring?
  
• Played it w/o makeup (a bit confusing, considering that the Moor's color is a key part of the play)?
  
• Or made the fellow playing the Moor up to fit the role?

Have skipped that play for one that fit the cast's coloring?
No. HELL no. Have we really reached a point where literally thousands of years of theater, where people have always made themselves up to appear more like a vast array of different characters, should be shitcanned? Linda Hunt won an Oscar for playing a white-Asian male in "A Year of Living Dangerously" but apparently that's now offensive and she never should have done it. Ditto Eddie Murphy who insensitively played a white, elderly, Jewish man in Coming to America. And clearly it was wrong and insensitive for a straight Tom Hanks to play a gay man with AIDS in Philadelphia. What was he thinking? (I'll fold on John Wayne playing Genghis Khan. What a train wreck.)

I find the rule of "You MUST stay strictly in your racial lane" to be offensive. Maybe it's because I was raised with the constant message, both from my parents and in school, that race didn't matter and we're all the same (how 60s and 70s). Maybe it's because my wife's family is such a blend. (She's black, Irish, and Native America. Her brother's wife is Puerto Rican. Her nephew's wife Bolivian. I'm the token white boy of European descent. And nobody effing cares.)

Played it w/o makeup (a bit confusing, considering that the Moor's color is a key part of the play)?
Just dumb.

Or made the fellow playing the Moor up to fit the role?
Yes.


Per the new rules I assume it would still be OK for me to go to a Halloween party as Mr. T (OK, nobody should do that but stay with me) as long as I restricted my costume to his vest and gold chains. I could not darken my skin and since I have straight, brown, white-boy hair (getting thinner by the year) it would also be racist if I wore a wig with his trademark hairstyle since coarse, tightly kinked hair is associated with blacks much like skin color. Little girls can dress like Moulan as long as all they do is wear her clothes. Dressing up to have long, straight, black hair, pale skin, and anything that makes her eyes look Asian is out of bounds because dressing up like a character she holds in high regard and wants to emulate is racist. In fact all people must restrict themselves in all situation to appearing as their assigned race. Again, stay in your racial lane. I assume it's OK to paint yourself yellow if you want to be a Minion but perhaps not.

There is a big difference, at least in my mind, between changing one's racial appearance to demean that race compared to imitation in theater, movies, or just creating a good costume for a party. Maybe I'm a dinosaur but then so is my black wife who hasn't seemed to have gotten the memo about what is supposed to offend her. Or perhaps Sullivan and Dreher have a bit of a point on the "woke" left and the real need to fight racism and mistreatment of people as stereotypes is starting to reach its illogical conclusion.

[Traveler]

Camp Runamuck PC.

[LFC]

Traveler, on 23 September 2019 - 01:40 PM, said:

Camp Runamuck PC.

A classic case of "anything worth doing is worth overdoing."

[J-CA]

I imagine myself as one or the few, maybe the only family of colour in a Montana community, where I have over the years had to tolerate many slights, mostly small, some large, from a community I love but always feel a little on the outside looking in on. I imagine myself hearing that the community theater program is thinking about doing Othello and figuring that it probably means someone is going to perform in blackface. I imagine myself thinking about the kids in town that threw a banana in my yard one day, the ones that made monkey noises at my kids when they were walking down the street and popping by the coffee shop to see LFC, to just let him know that I am concerned that a public display of blackface like that might embolden the few bad people in our town that act out in these ways. I imagine myself suggesting that maybe they could do "A Midsummer Night's Dream" instead, or "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead" - or at least thing about it - and he said:

LFC, on 23 September 2019 - 10:33 AM, said:

No. HELL no.

Too much to ask I guess.

[Rue Bella]

I think intent has a great deal to do with it. There are examples of blackface (and mannerisms) that are intended to ridicule, especially in the past with 'Mammy' types with wide eyes and exaggerated lips and labored speech. Then there are those playing a serious part, such as Laurence Olivier playing Othello.

Is every actor supposed to be the perfect natural skin color/race/gender for the role he/she is playing? At some point having to be politically perfect gets ludicrous. Let common sense prevail.

If a person of color (or Muslim or Mexican) lives in Montana (or almost anywhere), he knows there are going to be challenges. He of course could talk to the playhouse and offer alternate suggestions. Or perhaps he could audition for the role himself. Or he could just accept it as part of his life especially if there is no ill intent in producing that particular play. "Par for the course" and all.

In life you have to pick your battles. Some are worth fighting, others arent. Everyone is not going to be happy all the time about everything.

[LFC]

J-CA, on 23 September 2019 - 09:52 PM, said:

I imagine myself as one or the few, maybe the only family of colour in a Montana community, where I have over the years had to tolerate many slights, mostly small, some large, from a community I love but always feel a little on the outside looking in on. I imagine myself hearing that the community theater program is thinking about doing Othello and figuring that it probably means someone is going to perform in blackface. I imagine myself thinking about the kids in town that threw a banana in my yard one day, the ones that made monkey noises at my kids when they were walking down the street and popping by the coffee shop to see LFC, to just let him know that I am concerned that a public display of blackface like that might embolden the few bad people in our town that act out in these ways. I imagine myself suggesting that maybe they could do "A Midsummer Night's Dream" instead, or "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead" - or at least thing about it - and he said:

Too much to ask I guess.

I imagine people being able to grasp the difference between a classic stage production and Donald Trump rather than being in a constant state of being offended by everything. Too much to ask I guess.

[D. C. Sessions]

On the flip side, how about Denzel Washington playing the Prince in Much Ado About Nothing?