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Bill Maher on Socialism


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#21 LFC

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 02:38 PM

View Postgolden_valley, on 03 April 2019 - 11:21 AM, said:

What exactly is soaking the rich? How is it defined by the right and the left?

At least one large segment of the right views capital gains and estate taxes of any kind to be soaking the rich.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

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#22 AnBr

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 06:38 PM

I would say tax capital gains the same as income at a stiffly progressive rate. Remember that it has been as high as 90%, but even the more modest tax rate of 70% on the highest would help. That plus an inheritance tax high enough to end generational wealth. The latter is a key element that TR saw as essential to prevent oligarchic rule. High tax rates also have the added benefit that it helps increase charitable and social giving.
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#23 Practical Girl

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 11:14 AM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 01 April 2019 - 06:49 PM, said:

Uhhh .. those countries all spend less on healthcare than the US does. The fact that it's paid for by taxes rather than individual premiums doesn't change the bottom line.

Those countries also have free college education. Within living memory (mine) so did much of the USA. We decided to stop doing it, so I might ask why that seemed a good idea.

Those countries have roads that don't every now and then throw chunks of concrete into cars' windshields. The US used to, but decided not to -- it might be worth asking why it was a good idea.

Those countries have bridges that haven't had to be closed for safety reasons and not repaired. The US used to etc.

Many of those countries have extensive passenger rail systems that are fast, affordable, and widely used. The US etc.

Most of those countries are extremely small, in population, compared to revenue- and in many ways, less diverse, politically, than the US. Very like a wealthy state in the US, only with fewer people to serve. Remember- many of the small countries we're talking about also have the benefit of neighboring countries who think like they do- speaks to the rail system. Also a whole lot less land/infrastructure to serve. I'm not saying we shouldn't. Just saying that it's a bit more complicated here. In the US, we tend not to bond together, unless the crisis affects all.

Honestly, I have more questions than answers. But they do center around the difference between the countries we want to emulate and what is realistic, in the US.
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--- On September 17, 1787, as Benjamin Franklin was leaving the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention, at Independence Hall, in Philadelphia, a woman called out to him, saying, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?”
“A republic,” Franklin said, “if you can keep it.”


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#24 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 12:47 PM

The US once had a population density lower than it is now, but managed a lot of the things that we now claim to be unable to afford (roads, bridges, trains, other infrastructure, higher education ...)

Again: why have we decided that we can't afford those things when other, poorer, countries can and do?
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#25 Practical Girl

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 02:36 PM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 15 April 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

The US once had a population density lower than it is now, but managed a lot of the things that we now claim to be unable to afford (roads, bridges, trains, other infrastructure, higher education ...)

Again: why have we decided that we can't afford those things when other, poorer, countries can and do?

I get it, but are the European countries listed poorer? Do they have the drivers populations/regions to deal with as the US?

There's got to be other explanations.
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---Julia Child


--- On September 17, 1787, as Benjamin Franklin was leaving the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention, at Independence Hall, in Philadelphia, a woman called out to him, saying, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?”
“A republic,” Franklin said, “if you can keep it.”


--- LFC, on Gorsuch ruling: "Awesome. A Christianist who swore an oath to uphold the laws of the nation and bore false witness when he did it"

--- "Write hard and clear about what hurts"
Ernest Hemingway

#26 LFC

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 02:51 PM

View PostPractical Girl, on 15 April 2019 - 02:36 PM, said:

There's got to be other explanations.

One explanation; we have too many greedy, self-centered, ignorant assholes who don't believe in the common good unless somebody else pays for it.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#27 AnBr

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 03:17 PM

Those questions still ignore the fact that it cost less for medical care in many of those countries than here, so it is silly to say we can't afford it. If it costs less it cost less. It simply does not matter if that lowered cost is paid via taxes or premiums. You are still paying less.
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#28 Practical Girl

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 03:22 PM

View PostAnBr, on 15 April 2019 - 03:17 PM, said:

Those questions still ignore the fact that it cost less for medical care in many of those countries than here, so it is silly to say we can't afford it. If it costs less it cost less. It simply does not matter if that lowered cost is paid via taxes or premiums. You are still paying less.

I don't ignore it. and as an almost-too-huge consumer of healthcare, I am well aware. I'm onboard for necessary medications/procedures being priced just like the rest of the 1st world. Problem: They aren't. What to do with that, when Wall Street and Big Pharma and all the rest are busy buying our politicians? To ignore that is to ignore some of our problem.

So much more. Again- more questions than answers.
Every woman needs a blowtorch.
---Julia Child


--- On September 17, 1787, as Benjamin Franklin was leaving the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention, at Independence Hall, in Philadelphia, a woman called out to him, saying, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?”
“A republic,” Franklin said, “if you can keep it.”


--- LFC, on Gorsuch ruling: "Awesome. A Christianist who swore an oath to uphold the laws of the nation and bore false witness when he did it"

--- "Write hard and clear about what hurts"
Ernest Hemingway

#29 AnBr

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 03:36 PM

The political reality of it is not the same thing as how well it would work. That is a different argument. I'll grant you that getting there will be hard. This is what the Brogressives do not understand. You have to get there within what is politically possible at the moment. This usually means two steps forward and one step back. This is not "incrementalism", but is the simple reality.
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#30 pnwguy

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 05:08 PM

View PostAnBr, on 15 April 2019 - 03:17 PM, said:

Those questions still ignore the fact that it cost less for medical care in many of those countries than here, so it is silly to say we can't afford it. If it costs less it cost less. It simply does not matter if that lowered cost is paid via taxes or premiums. You are still paying less.
If there ever was a conversion to single payer, all a functioning federal government would have to do is include legislation that employees must be paid outright what the employer was previously paying in premiums. For most taxpayers, the increase in pay would be greater than an increase in general income taxes that would fund the single payer outlays. But since that would probably not be true for the upper 10% of taxpayers, and they have the most political bribery power, this explains a lot of why the US remains the first world exception.
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#31 baw1064

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 05:16 PM

I think a good place to start would be to mandate complete transparency in all pricing and all contracts governing pricing. Force everyone to live in a glass house.
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#32 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 06:04 PM

View PostPractical Girl, on 15 April 2019 - 02:36 PM, said:

I get it, but are the European countries listed poorer? Do they have the drivers populations/regions to deal with as the US?

There's got to be other explanations.

Why could the USA of my childhood afford them and not the USA of today? Are we, as a nation, poorer? Were we homogeneous then? Was our population density higher?

All well and good to cite the differences between northern Europe and the USA, but when you include the USA of the recent past in the "northern Europe" set and compare to today, a lot of the "American Exceptionalism" excuses get kind of strained.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO





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