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Bill Maher on Socialism


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#1 AnBr

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Posted 30 March 2019 - 09:33 PM

https://www.rollings...cialism-815736/

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“If socialism is such nightmare then why do all the happiest countries in the world embrace it?” the comedian asked

Of course what he is talking about is really more social democracy, not socialism.


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#2 LFC

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Posted 31 March 2019 - 10:15 AM

I saw this last night. I don't always agree with him (no shock there) but this is why I really like Maher.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#3 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 31 March 2019 - 10:43 AM

They aren't really happy. They just tell people they're happy because reasons.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#4 pnwguy

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Posted 31 March 2019 - 11:24 AM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 31 March 2019 - 10:43 AM, said:

They aren't really happy. They just tell people they're happy because reasons.
No they say they are happy because their version of the Deep State has brainwashed them. Plus Satan’s lies.
"All glory to the HypnoTrump, or else..."

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#5 Practical Girl

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Posted 31 March 2019 - 01:36 PM

Please. Of the tops on that list- how many rely on things like an oil and gas fund OR capitalism itself, to fund all that happiness?

I get it. Move to Norway, where the Oil Fund affords each citizen just under $200k/year. Dirty freaking business (thanks for contributing to climate change), and sustainable only when they start fracking. And, well, with just under 6 million folks- you can do that. Especially when you're not spending boatloads on military.

Now- could we, the US, do that? Heck yes- and no... Every 60 seconds brings oil and gas profits that equals/surpasses what 90% of the average haul-in for citizens. Per year. Every 60 seconds...

But of course, now we have to talk about Wall Street. Uh- a wee bit tough to extricate the rich and powerful from that. Hey- I'm ok with nationalizing the O&G industry, for now. But the market would take a huge tumble. Whoop-tee-tah...
Every woman needs a blowtorch.
---Julia Child


--- On September 17, 1787, as Benjamin Franklin was leaving the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention, at Independence Hall, in Philadelphia, a woman called out to him, saying, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?”
“A republic,” Franklin said, “if you can keep it.”


--- LFC, on Gorsuch ruling: "Awesome. A Christianist who swore an oath to uphold the laws of the nation and bore false witness when he did it"

--- "Write hard and clear about what hurts"
Ernest Hemingway

#6 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 31 March 2019 - 01:51 PM

View PostPractical Girl, on 31 March 2019 - 01:36 PM, said:

Please. Of the tops on that list- how many rely on things like an oil and gas fund OR capitalism itself, to fund all that happiness?

I get it. Move to Norway, where the Oil Fund affords each citizen just under $200k/year.

How does Finland do it?
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#7 Practical Girl

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Posted 31 March 2019 - 04:28 PM

IDK- compassionate economics, as they say. Taxes, baby. Or- I'm certain you have something to say. Do tell!

Ho, ho, hey, hey- Nordic model, all the way! C'mon...
Every woman needs a blowtorch.
---Julia Child


--- On September 17, 1787, as Benjamin Franklin was leaving the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention, at Independence Hall, in Philadelphia, a woman called out to him, saying, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?”
“A republic,” Franklin said, “if you can keep it.”


--- LFC, on Gorsuch ruling: "Awesome. A Christianist who swore an oath to uphold the laws of the nation and bore false witness when he did it"

--- "Write hard and clear about what hurts"
Ernest Hemingway

#8 LFC

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 09:17 AM

FYI here's a graphic of the list from the 2019 report. The US is #19. Every nation above them is more socialist. Coincidence? Or perhaps Maher is spot on and "for some reason" people aren't happy being in a constant state of worry knowing that one illness, one job loss, or one unexpected tragedy could wipe out your financial security in the blink of an eye. That is, of course, if you even have any financial security which many Americans do not.

Posted Image
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#9 LFC

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 09:27 AM

View PostPractical Girl, on 31 March 2019 - 01:36 PM, said:

Please. Of the tops on that list- how many rely on things like an oil and gas fund OR capitalism itself, to fund all that happiness?

Uuuuuh, virtually none when it comes to oil and gas. Norway appears to be the only one getting a really decent chunk of GDP (3.84%) from oil and gas. I may be wrong but after a quick scan it appears to be the only one of the top 20 oil producers to make the top 20 in happiness. Finland, Iceland, Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, and Austria (all top 10 in happiness index) get less of their GDP from gas and oil than the U.S. It appears that oil revenues have no correlation to happiness, not even in a spurious sense.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#10 AnBr

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 10:06 AM

Notice that all those above the US are the countries that the tRumpies would be fine to have its citizens come to this country and most of those below are all shithole countries. Why do the Rethugs want us to emulate shithole countries?
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#11 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 12:40 PM

View PostAnBr, on 01 April 2019 - 10:06 AM, said:

Notice that all those above the US are the countries that the tRumpies would be fine to have its citizens come to this country and most of those below are all shithole countries. Why do the Rethugs want us to emulate shithole countries?

Milton, Paradise Lost, Book 1, line 263
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#12 Practical Girl

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 12:47 PM

View PostLFC, on 01 April 2019 - 09:27 AM, said:

Uuuuuh, virtually none when it comes to oil and gas. Norway appears to be the only one getting a really decent chunk of GDP (3.84%) from oil and gas. I may be wrong but after a quick scan it appears to be the only one of the top 20 oil producers to make the top 20 in happiness. Finland, Iceland, Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, and Austria (all top 10 in happiness index) get less of their GDP from gas and oil than the U.S. It appears that oil revenues have no correlation to happiness, not even in a spurious sense.

Yes, and BS. From where do this "happiness" revenue flow? It's easy to take a post and make it the entire point. My fault, but golly- bring it. From where do (for example- won't die on this hill) Switzerland's revenues flow? I just need some answers, from those of you who are sure you have them. ;)

Then you get to tell me how that translates to the US...I'm ready to adopt.
Every woman needs a blowtorch.
---Julia Child


--- On September 17, 1787, as Benjamin Franklin was leaving the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention, at Independence Hall, in Philadelphia, a woman called out to him, saying, “Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?”
“A republic,” Franklin said, “if you can keep it.”


--- LFC, on Gorsuch ruling: "Awesome. A Christianist who swore an oath to uphold the laws of the nation and bore false witness when he did it"

--- "Write hard and clear about what hurts"
Ernest Hemingway

#13 LFC

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 01:10 PM

View PostPractical Girl, on 01 April 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

Yes, and BS. From where do this "happiness" revenue flow? It's easy to take a post and make it the entire point. My fault, but golly- bring it. From where do (for example- won't die on this hill) Switzerland's revenues flow? I just need some answers, from those of you who are sure you have them. ;)

Then you get to tell me how that translates to the US...I'm ready to adopt.

I guess I'm missing your point ... as in completely missing it. I've reread your posts twice and there's a lot of snark but I guess I don't get the central point. Or maybe you're arguing against (or at least expressing great skepticism of) socialism vs. a social democracy which, as AnBr pointed out in the original post, is what Bill Maher is actually talking about? To quote from the video:

Quote

“We want ‘you don’t have to win the lotto to afford brain surgery’ socialism. Socialism as an economic model replacing capitalism is bad but socialism as a supplement to capitalism, good.”

Countries with things like universal healthcare, national retirement planning, and free or at least affordable college education seem to be happier than the U.S. which is lacking in all of these areas. And it's taking these large worries away that make the citizens of other countries happier. Is that a statement you believe is incorrect?
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#14 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 06:49 PM

Uhhh .. those countries all spend less on healthcare than the US does. The fact that it's paid for by taxes rather than individual premiums doesn't change the bottom line.

Those countries also have free college education. Within living memory (mine) so did much of the USA. We decided to stop doing it, so I might ask why that seemed a good idea.

Those countries have roads that don't every now and then throw chunks of concrete into cars' windshields. The US used to, but decided not to -- it might be worth asking why it was a good idea.

Those countries have bridges that haven't had to be closed for safety reasons and not repaired. The US used to etc.

Many of those countries have extensive passenger rail systems that are fast, affordable, and widely used. The US etc.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#15 AnBr

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Posted 01 April 2019 - 09:18 PM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 01 April 2019 - 06:49 PM, said:

Uhhh .. those countries all spend less on healthcare than the US does. The fact that it's paid for by taxes rather than individual premiums doesn't change the bottom line.

Those countries also have free college education. Within living memory (mine) so did much of the USA. We decided to stop doing it, so I might ask why that seemed a good idea.

This is something that many, both pro and con seem to miss in these discussions. Yes, taxes would have to be raised to support such things, but it is not simply added the budget as is. If overall healthcare is cheaper, what does it matter if people pay it through increased taxes or in individual premiums. It is still less money that they pay overall. The money for affordable college is an investment in the earning potential of future taxpayers. The greater the income, the greater the gained revenues. It is not as much a matter of soak the rich, it is increasing the tax base. The wealthy need to be heavily taxed, but not to pay for such things, rather to address income inequality. That concentration of wealth has been horribly corrosive to our democracy. Use the revenue from increased taxes on the wealthy as seed money for these things and much of it will become self supporting.
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#16 LFC

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Posted 02 April 2019 - 09:27 AM

View PostAnBr, on 01 April 2019 - 09:18 PM, said:

This is something that many, both pro and con seem to miss in these discussions. Yes, taxes would have to be raised to support such things, but it is not simply added the budget as is. If overall healthcare is cheaper, what does it matter if people pay it through increased taxes or in individual premiums. It is still less money that they pay overall. The money for affordable college is an investment in the earning potential of future taxpayers. The greater the income, the greater the gained revenues. It is not as much a matter of soak the rich, it is increasing the tax base.

The problem we have is that to understand how this works you have to understand the basic maths. MAGAs don't like the maths.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#17 AnBr

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Posted 02 April 2019 - 10:11 AM

View PostLFC, on 02 April 2019 - 09:27 AM, said:

The problem we have is that to understand how this works you have to understand the basic maths. MAGAs don't like the maths.

But even the ultra libs seem to not understand this. Their only solution is to soak the rich. Then again, the ultra left seems to have much in common with the MAGAts.
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#18 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 02 April 2019 - 12:19 PM

View PostAnBr, on 02 April 2019 - 10:11 AM, said:

But even the ultra libs seem to not understand this. Their only solution is to soak the rich. Then again, the ultra left seems to have much in common with the MAGAts.

If you talk to the Warrens and Krugmans, or for that matter the LGM set, you'll hear that the rich-soaking is necessary to brake the collapse into outright plutocracy short of world war, and that the plutocracy is why we've been tearing down things like infrastructure, education, etc. that we want. That the revenues from soaking won't pay for it all (basic arithmetic) but will start up the "virtuous cycle" that we had going in the 50s, with infrastructure and education enabling increasing productivity and genuine growth for the majority who can then pay taxes to support it (as distinct from the majority paying more in taxes than the top ranks, who destroy more with their rent-seeking than they actually collect -- by a large margin.)
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#19 AnBr

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Posted 02 April 2019 - 08:37 PM

I would not include the Warrens and Krugmans in the unthinking ultra left. They understand that soaking the rich won't pay for it, but that does not mean that it does not need to be done for other valid reasons.
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#20 golden_valley

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 11:21 AM

What exactly is soaking the rich? How is it defined by the right and the left?





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