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Could the 737 and 777 crashes have be caused by reprogramming from the ground?


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#41 andydp

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 03:11 PM

View PostHockeyDon, on 25 March 2019 - 02:58 PM, said:

Oh, I'm sure.

That specific example was from a mechanical engineer working in the auto industry. Not the guys doing fancy car design stuff, but rather the mundane bits that are important to a good functioning vehicle. His rant stemmed from an improvement that was shot down because it would cost an extra $0.13 to build the car, even though it resulted in a better 'quality of life' for the end user.

Too many years ago, I read "Wheels". They spoke about a problem that came up with a new car model. It would cost .50 to fix it. The author Alex Haley (?) went on to say they literally try to shave pennies off car costs. Like those new ignition switches they could have replaced.

Sad part is, they pay for it up front then sue the parts makes for the costs. It's a lawyer's wet dream.
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#42 George Rowell

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 10:27 PM

Just come across this. The 737 has had 4x more fatalities than the A320. Maybe it is who we are selling the planes to, training.

https://aviation.sta...-the-airbus-320 - 4 years ago
https://www.airfleet...ities_plane.htm - up to date
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#43 baw1064

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 10:39 PM

View PostGeorge Rowell, on 25 March 2019 - 10:27 PM, said:

Just come across this. The 737 has had nearly 5x more fatalities than the A320. Tally does not include next gen 737.

https://aviation.sta...-the-airbus-320
https://www.airfleet...ities_plane.htm

At first glance, it looks like a clear case of apples and oranges. The only fair way to do the comparison, I maintain, is by comparing fatalities per flight.
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#44 George Rowell

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 10:43 PM

View Postbaw1064, on 25 March 2019 - 10:39 PM, said:

At first glance, it looks like a clear case of apples and oranges. The only fair way to do the comparison, I maintain, is by comparing fatalities per flight.
I am always skeptical of nicely tabulated results! I really think the markets and training need examination. Especially training.

And yes, fatalities per mile/flight are better metrics.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#45 George Rowell

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 10:52 PM

Talking about danger, I remember flying low along a railway line in thick fog, looking out for electricity pylons and hoping there wasn't a small plane coming the other way doing the same thing. There were two of us and I think the pilot wanted to see if I broke down. Eventually landed on a grass landing strip at Headcorn in kent, where the 'tower' comms were down and waited for the sun to dry up the fog.

And I paid for that!!
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#46 LFC

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Posted 27 March 2019 - 10:49 AM

What is appearing to be a regulatory failure may shake up the FAA.

Quote

America’s standing as the model for aviation-safety regulation will be on trial as congressional hearings begin into the Federal Aviation Administration’s oversight of Boeing before and after two deadly crashes of its best-selling airliner.

The Senate aviation subcommittee is scheduled to hear testimony Wednesday from the acting head of the FAA, the Transportation Department inspector general, who is leading a review of the FAA and Boeing, and the nation’s top transportation safety investigator.

Inspector General Calvin Scovel III is expected to reveal plans to significantly revamp the FAA’s oversight of airplane construction this summer and discuss his office’s findings of management weaknesses with a number of the agency’s oversight processes over the years.

“While revamping FAA’s oversight process will be an important step, continued management attention will be key to ensure the agency identifies and monitors the highest-risk areas of aircraft certification,” Scovel wrote in his prepared remarks obtained by The Associated Press.

Even though the agency has made improvements, it plans by July to develop new evaluation criteria for training and company self-audits, Scovel wrote.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

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#47 pnwguy

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Posted 27 March 2019 - 11:28 AM

View PostLFC, on 27 March 2019 - 10:49 AM, said:

What is appearing to be a regulatory failure may shake up the FAA.
I'd love to know if and how much the GOP House had defunded the FAA, to make room for those tax cuts that magically pay for themselves. No need to keep all those worthless federal bureaucrats on the taxpayer dole. Private industry can regulate itself best!
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#48 LFC

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Posted 27 March 2019 - 01:56 PM

View Postpnwguy, on 27 March 2019 - 11:28 AM, said:

I'd love to know if and how much the GOP House had defunded the FAA, to make room for those tax cuts that magically pay for themselves. No need to keep all those worthless federal bureaucrats on the taxpayer dole. Private industry can regulate itself best!

Ask and ye shall receive (bold mine).

Quote

The Federal Aviation Administration is handing off certification work to aircraft manufacturers like Boeing because of pressure on the agency to keep up with the rapidly growing drone industry.

Officials from the FAA, National Transportation Safety Board, and Department of Transportation will testify before Congress on Wednesday in hearings focused on how the FAA and Boeing have handled the aftermath of two fatal crashes involving the 737 MAX-8 in five months.

While there’s no direct evidence that the pressure may have hampered the FAA’s role in certifying the 737 MAX and the anti-stall system suspected of bringing down the jets, it is clearly one reason that the FAA ceded part of the work to Boeing in 2017 when the agency gave final certification to the MAX.

The agency’s budget request for that year said its Aviation Safety Office, in charge of certifying aircraft, would need “additional safety staffing to meet growing demands for UAS [unmanned aircraft system] operations, while continuing to expand delegation responsibilities to designees,” like Boeing.

FAA staff is under unprecedented pressure to meet the demands of a radical change in the way that airspace will be used in the next decade.

This pressure is coming at the agency in two urgent waves: First, to produce regulations that will permit short-range drone deliveries in urban areas and second – and far more revolutionary – to clear another layer of airspace for new fleets of electrically powered air taxis, a vision of future mobility being driven by Uber.

The FAA’s budget request for the 2019 fiscal year indicated a perfect storm of converging leaps in aviation technology: It said it had to accommodate “a spike in unmanned aircraft system (UAS) work, as well as an increase in the level of complexity that some of these projects will bring.

“While FAA’s staffing plan calls for adding AVS (Aviation Safety Office) personnel in future its fiscal 2019 strategy is to redirect existing resources…These factors are driving the need in the short-term to reprioritize some of the AVS existing resources for certification services and UAS integration.”

The agency’s 2019 budget actually cut funding for the Aviation Safety Office by 1.7 percent.

An FAA spokesperson told The Daily Beast that they could not respond in detail to specific questions about the impact of certification and oversight work on unmanned aircraft systems. This included revealing any measure of the increased workload imposed by the introduction of commercial drones – or how those resources have been allocated since 2016.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

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#49 LFC

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 02:43 PM

Trump's acting head of the FAA is about as intertwined with the people he's supposed to be regulating as it gets.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#50 J-CA

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 03:11 PM

View PostTraveler, on 18 March 2019 - 12:22 PM, said:

That is breathtakingly stupid way to design a system and its interface. SO the more you fight it, the more it fights you. At the end it takes 80kg of stick force to fight the stick. How long would you like to curl 180 lb?
Isn't this pretty much how fly-by-wire systems work? Resistance to commands has to scale in particular way so that pilots feel the feedback as if they are adjusting the physical properties of the plane?
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#51 J-CA

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 03:21 PM

View PostGeorge Rowell, on 13 March 2019 - 09:30 PM, said:

... Below is an article by TheGuardian.

https://guardianlv.c...rom-the-ground/
Thaaaats... not The Guardian.
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#52 LFC

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Posted 07 May 2019 - 04:14 PM

More about the "success" of allowing Boeing to inspect itself.

Quote

Boeing is falling under increased scrutiny after it was uncovered that the company knew that there were problems with the 737 Max 8 prior to the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crashes. But Boeing’s problems just got worse.

Reports are surfacing of recurring errors on the assembly line for the 787 Dreamliner plane. According to The The Post and Courier, the problems likely came from a manufacturing process that has mechanics to “self regulate” the work. The errors are believed to have stemmed from a manufacturing process that allows mechanics to self-inspect their work, The Post and Courier reported, citing Boeing workers.

Debris was discovered in airspeed sensors, rags and bolts were also found in planes, and loose cabin seats, the paper reported. There were tires for the plane that had cuts in them, untested gears and “malfunctioning hydraulics systems” that workers spotted.

According to the report, 90 percent of the aircraft’s production fell under the “self-inspect” program but most of the mistakes were discovered before the plane was turned over to airlines.

President Donald Trump has argued over the last two years of his presidency that regulations are the enemy of business. In the pork industry specifically, inspectors are now allowing “self-regulation” or “self-inspection.” Trump now wants to let nuclear plants do the same self-regulation.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#53 George Rowell

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 03:15 AM

Conditional stability apart, the Max 8 differs from all new airliners in another way. It does not use fly-by-wire. In an unprecedented act of design cost cutting it clings to derivatives of the original mechanical control system, with the exception of a single non important system.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#54 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 08:09 AM

Boeing made the executive decision very early in the Max program to present the Max as just another 737 so that airlines like Southwest which have standardized on 737s would accept it. That meant that, for instance, the bird had to fly like a 737 and had to have the same type of control system etc. (Thus the hydraulics instead of FBW.)

The crashes came from having to fake the original 737 flight behavior with a bird that has dramatically different weight, lift, etc. distributions. So they put a box in the control path to translate 737 control inputs into what would, in normal flight, be appropriate for the Max. This in order to avoid admitting that the Max needs separate pilot training. Since the Max has, built into the engines and airframe, a much larger thrust/pitch coupling, the "box" automagically overrides the pilot when thrust is increased to pitch down. It all seems dandy until you get a sensor failure (same general problem that Airbus had with pitot tubes). What would have been a simple matter for both Boeing and Airbus of training pilots turned into a Controlled Flight Into Terrain. Except with Boeing, the pilots did the right thing and the box overrode them.
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#55 George Rowell

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 09:45 AM

I am a believer in the KISS philosophy but it still surprised me. As you say the FBW did not cause the crashes. As for MACS, well I suppose we can get used it like electric power steering, stabilized brakes, computer controlled drives and suspension.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#56 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 06:45 PM

The FBW didn't cause the Brazilian Airbus crash, a failed pitot did. The problem was that the pilots had gotten so used to the autopilot that when the pitot failed and the autopilot nosed down to regain airspeed they didn't immediately take control. There are a lot of ways for a pilot to know what regime the bird is in, and approaching stall is easy. Besides which you have the minor hint that you're straight and level at a known altitude with the engines symmetrically operating at their usual cruising thrust etc etc. If nothing else, GPS. As with most crashes, it took several failures (both in the aircraft and the crew) to kill those people.

The FBW was not one of them.

As far as mission-critical flight control systems are concerned, the F16 (which is at best marginally stable) and the X-29 (which is totally unstable to the point of death trap) have flown for how long? 40+ years for the Falcon; the X-29 retired at the end of the project with no problems. It's quite possible to make these systems more reliable than the simple hydraulic ones, but you have to approach them with the right attitude, specifically that Murphy is going to get several tries on each flight and only needs to score once to kill hundreds of people.

What Boeing did was approach the whole affair as a marketing gimmick instead of a life-support mechanism.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#57 George Rowell

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 10:42 PM

The Eurofighter was designed to be unstable, so the concept is OK. I get the feeling that because the MAX 8 is unstable it is critical that the MACS set the 'Trim' specially for take off, climb, cruise, descend and land and that these settings may be too great to achieved manually alone. To the pilot It feels normal because the MACS is there in the background giving the pilot a center point to operate - until something goes wrong.

If so that is quite sophisticated software but doable, however it is a patch and one that I would feel uncomfortable with. I would feel happy knowing that after the trim is set I can do all the maneuvers required manually.

I say this and I am a person waiting for Tesla's coming SUV with full auto drive in great anticipation. My present vehicle has a 'drive pilot' that can only be described as lethal. If the car in front turns off it either tries to follow it and goes off the road, or races up to the vehicle that has been exposed by the one that turned off, and performs an emergency stop at the last moment. Scary stuff. Useless crap.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#58 George Rowell

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 11:20 PM

Maybe not a good time to publicly announce an intention of Certification by Simulation. https://www.reuters....s-idUSKCN1TH0A3
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#59 Rich T Bikkies

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 06:00 AM

View PostGeorge Rowell, on 16 June 2019 - 11:20 PM, said:

Maybe not a good time to publicly announce an intention of Certification by Simulation. https://www.reuters....s-idUSKCN1TH0A3

"Certification" was what they used to call it in the UK when they detained people compulsorily under the Mental Health Act as in-patients in psychiatric hospitals, a.k.a "certifying a lunatic for the asylum". (Now called "sectioning").

I'm all for certification. In these troubled times I have a long list of candidates to propose.
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#60 George Rowell

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 05:16 AM

More grief for Boeing. Four hundred pilots have started a class action against American plane manufacturer Boeing for:-

"engaged in an unprecedented cover-up of the known design flaws of the MAX, which predictably resulted in the crashes of two MAX aircraft and subsequent grounding of all MAX aircraft worldwide." - "inherently dangerous aerodynamic handling defects".

I hope the bean counters have learnt a lesson, but I doubt it. The directors that have destroyed decades of trust should go to prison. What a cluster-screw this whole thing is. Bankrupt the bastards too, no golden handshakes even if they technically wriggle out of culpability.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.





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