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Could the 737 and 777 crashes have be caused by reprogramming from the ground?


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#21 George Rowell

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Posted 19 March 2019 - 08:47 AM

View PostHockeyDon, on 19 March 2019 - 07:31 AM, said:

Add to that, neither teaches real-world application/use. I deal with that all the time with both our ERP/MRP and our CAD (computer aided design) software.
I am familiar with some CAD but I had to look up ERP/MRP! Modern stuff.

Don't laugh but one of my first major projects was an analog computer for a coal mine. Basically you gave it a set of simultaneous inequalities (limits or constraints), a little proportional control, kept within the BODE stability criteria, and said do what you like between that lot, I don't care! On the face of it the sequence to control the 737 MAX stabilizer does not sound difficult, but as you intimate the real World fights back, with a vengeance.
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#22 George Rowell

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Posted 19 March 2019 - 09:27 AM

I notice that the media were quick to point out that the first officer only had 200 hours flying time and I seized upon that, but it turns the pilot had several thousand.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#23 baw1064

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Posted 19 March 2019 - 05:26 PM

View PostGeorge Rowell, on 19 March 2019 - 09:27 AM, said:

I notice that the media were quick to point out that the first officer only had 200 hours flying time and I seized upon that, but it turns the pilot had several thousand.

Which is probably fine most of the time, but in an emergency situation you need both of them to be very familiar with the plane and its quirks, and know exactly what to do.
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#24 George Rowell

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 12:09 AM

View Postbaw1064, on 19 March 2019 - 05:26 PM, said:

Which is probably fine most of the time, but in an emergency situation you need both of them to be very familiar with the plane and its quirks, and know exactly what to do.
Off duty pilot saves 737 MAX the day before it crashed.
https://www.zerohedg...ay-deadly-crash
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#25 baw1064

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 11:40 AM

Here's Bloomberg's report

Quote

As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing Co. 737 Max 8, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.

That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia’s investigation.


The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard.


...


The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize.


Killing the power to the motor sounds like a really kloogy work-around!
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#26 andydp

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 12:01 PM

View Postbaw1064, on 20 March 2019 - 11:40 AM, said:

Here's Bloomberg's report
[/color]

Killing the power to the motor sounds like a really kloogy work-around!

I imagine in these "fly by wire" cockpits its likely the only way to override. (This is an assumption based solely on the fact if your PC, or cable box starts acting stupid, then you cut power for 30 seconds)
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If you've got public schools paid for by taxpayers, you're in a socialist nation. If you have public roads paid for by taxpayers, socialist nation. If you've got public defense (police, fire, military, coast guard) paid for by tax dollars, socialist nation. If you're in a nation that has nationalized or localized delivery of services that are not paid for by users alone, you're in a socialist nation- the only question is how socialist. As I see it, we have the military pay to protecting the shipping lanes for our fuel needs which makes up very socialist. In a capitalist nation, the people supplying the oil would pay for their own defense force.


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#27 LFC

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 11:31 AM

The FBI is involved in a criminal investigation into the certification process used for the Boeing 737 Max. The investigation apparently started after the Lion Air crash and before the Ethiopia crash.

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The FBI has joined the criminal investigation into the certification of the Boeing 737 MAX, lending its considerable resources to an inquiry already being conducted by U.S. Department of Transportation agents, according to people familiar with the matter.

The federal grand jury investigation, based in Washington, D.C., is looking into the certification process that approved the safety of the new Boeing plane, two of which have crashed since October.

The FBI’s Seattle field office lies in proximity to Boeing’s 737 manufacturing plant in Renton, as well as nearby offices of Boeing and Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) officials involved in the certification of the plane.

The investigation, which is being overseen by the U.S. Justice Department’s criminal division and carried out by the Transportation Department’s Inspector General, began in response to information obtained after a Lion Air 737 MAX 8 crashed shortly after takeoff from Jakarta on Oct. 29, killing 189 people, Bloomberg reported earlier this week, citing an unnamed source.

It has widened since then, The Associated Press reported this week, with the grand jury issuing a subpoena on March 11 for information from someone involved in the plane’s development, one day after the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX 8 near Addis Ababa that killed 157 people.


Looks like a case of self-regulation, the very policy being pushed across industry by the Trump administration and part of standard Republican policy at this point. I guess not having to care about the health or even lives of people helps make you "competitive."

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A Seattle Times story on Sunday detailed how FAA managers pushed its engineers to delegate more of the certification process to Boeing itself. The Times story also detailed flaws in an original safety analysis that Boeing delivered to the FAA.

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#28 George Rowell

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 11:33 PM

View PostLFC, on 21 March 2019 - 11:31 AM, said:

Looks like a case of self-regulation -- competitive
The MCAS system software as it stands would fail any meaningful test. I really believe it is 'proof of concept' software and somehow, horribly, it got approved. I simply cannot believe that it was rushed through or passed for economic reasons. I find that inconceivable. I think it is an organisational cock-up, incredible as that may seem. That is exactly why we need independent oversight and regulation.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#29 George Rowell

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 12:15 AM

Sorry, Safety costs extra! But the good news is an AOA disagreement light will now be free.

This is hard to believe. https://news.yahoo.c...-205335907.html
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#30 golden_valley

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 11:34 AM

Remember the Ford Pinto in the 1970s? The position of the gas tank led to rupture when the car was hit from the rear at 20 or more mph. Ford knew it from their own testing but did not modify the design. Subsequent lawsuits revealed internal memos suggesting that a redesign and retooling was more expensive than the cost of anticipated litigation arising when people were injured by gas tank ruptures.

#31 LFC

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 11:48 AM

View Postgolden_valley, on 22 March 2019 - 11:34 AM, said:

Remember the Ford Pinto in the 1970s? The position of the gas tank led to rupture when the car was hit from the rear at 20 or more mph. Ford knew it from their own testing but did not modify the design. Subsequent lawsuits revealed internal memos suggesting that a redesign and retooling was more expensive than the cost of anticipated litigation arising when people were injured by gas tank ruptures.

Same with GM pickups that had dual side fuel tanks. I suspect that this is a common corporate discussion in those companies that have the potential of serious liability issues. It's why regulatory fines need to be so much higher. If a company's downside of putting customers in danger is breaking even then you have to expect that they'll go for it. If it's serious loss and potential collapse of the company the risk/reward calculation changes significantly. If higher ups are facing jail time then even more so.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#32 George Rowell

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 12:27 AM

View Postgolden_valley, on 22 March 2019 - 11:34 AM, said:

Remember the Ford Pinto in the 1970s? The position of the gas tank led to rupture when the car was hit from the rear at 20 or more mph. Ford knew it from their own testing but did not modify the design. Subsequent lawsuits revealed internal memos suggesting that a redesign and retooling was more expensive than the cost of anticipated litigation arising when people were injured by gas tank ruptures.
I remember a German tank being destroyed by a Ford Pinto in an Indiana Jones film and the horror on their faces when they thought it might touch the Pinto. On a more sinister note I also remember a BBC documentary in the 70's about an unusual number of people making claims against Ford dying under strange circumstances. The Beeb implying that some mafia shareholders had a lot to lose. Sorry no source just my memory!
Before the mid 80's there were few satellites and the Beeb were not so worried about treading on the odd finger or two, that certainly is not the case today.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#33 George Rowell

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 12:32 AM

View PostLFC, on 22 March 2019 - 11:48 AM, said:

Same with GM pickups that had dual side fuel tanks. I suspect that this is a common corporate discussion in those companies that have the potential of serious liability issues. It's why regulatory fines need to be so much higher. If a company's downside of putting customers in danger is breaking even then you have to expect that they'll go for it. If it's serious loss and potential collapse of the company the risk/reward calculation changes significantly. If higher ups are facing jail time then even more so.
I think the 737 MAX saga may make Boeing management appreciate the (financial) value of an independent review. The more I think about how it went so wrong the more puzzled I get.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#34 baw1064

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 05:39 PM

View PostGeorge Rowell, on 23 March 2019 - 12:27 AM, said:

I remember a German tank being destroyed by a Ford Pinto in an Indiana Jones film and the horror on their faces when they thought it might touch the Pinto.

I remember that scene, but it wasn't an Indiana Jones movie (not unless they outfitted the Pinto for time travel a la the DeLorean!). It was from an 80's comedy movie, either Stripes with Bill Murray or one whose title I forget with Goldie Hawn. A cheesy but clever bit of topical humor, that!
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#35 George Rowell

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 07:51 PM

View Postbaw1064, on 23 March 2019 - 05:39 PM, said:

I remember that scene, but it wasn't an Indiana Jones movie (not unless they outfitted the Pinto for time travel a la the DeLorean!). It was from an 80's comedy movie, either Stripes with Bill Murray or one whose title I forget with Goldie Hawn. A cheesy but clever bit of topical humor, that!
As you say it was NOT in Indian Jones. Here it is. https://www.youtube....h?v=-9GGDOUDLhc

It was from 'Top Secret' with Val Kilmer and it was a German armored truck vs a Pinto. Still hilarious.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#36 baw1064

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 08:02 PM

Yup, the title does ring a bell now that you mention it!
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#37 George Rowell

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 02:33 AM

View PostLFC, on 22 March 2019 - 11:48 AM, said:

Same with GM pickups that had dual side fuel tanks. I suspect that this is a common corporate discussion in those companies that have the potential of serious liability issues. It's why regulatory fines need to be so much higher. If a company's downside of putting customers in danger is breaking even then you have to expect that they'll go for it. If it's serious loss and potential collapse of the company the risk/reward calculation changes significantly. If higher ups are facing jail time then even more so.
Firstly LFC, my core being agrees with you. I feel outraged that somebody should put profit before safety and if cold-calculating reasoning like this went into the design stage, so much the worse.

Just a thought. Maybe big companies like Boeing or Ford be given the choice to pay into a national scheme (related to individual products that they have chosen to include) that will give victims substantial packages, or themselves pay all the victims(families) huge compensation, much more than courts presently allow.

My reasoning is this. If a product needs to be expensively over-engineered to reduce the chance of injury to near zero, then would not that money be better used to fund schools and hospitals? Let the companies themselves decide if they want to participate in the scheme for a particular product. If they have to pay out huge sums in compensation it will concentrate their mind to do their sums right.

The benefit will come from all those boats, ships, cars, medicines that were not over engineered, that actually prove safe, and for which companies have paid lots and lots of money to participate in the scheme, money that ends up put to community use..

This comes close to professional indemnity insurance, the difference is that manufacturers can choose to opt in for individual product/services. They will do their own risk assessment for each product, which is best done by them anyway. It will also rationalize and make legal the cynical cost effective studies that people like Boeing/Airbus, already do. Their studies on cost effectiveness will then be seen as benefiting the community instead of abusing it, which indeed it will.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#38 HockeyDon

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 10:12 AM

View PostLFC, on 22 March 2019 - 11:48 AM, said:

Same with GM pickups that had dual side fuel tanks. I suspect that this is a common corporate discussion in those companies that have the potential of serious liability issues. It's why regulatory fines need to be so much higher. If a company's downside of putting customers in danger is breaking even then you have to expect that they'll go for it. If it's serious loss and potential collapse of the company the risk/reward calculation changes significantly. If higher ups are facing jail time then even more so.

Stop suspecting. It's absolutely a fact.

If the liability studies they conduct showed a money savings by replacing the head-rest with a hatchet in the face of the liability, public perception, and, you know, death, they would do so. It's all bottom line with many of those types.
Well, fuck.

How can I be expected to distinguish BS from reality when so much of my reality is utter BS?!

"There seems to be a lot of people dying of ignorance while living in the information age." my sister-in-law.

#39 andydp

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 02:46 PM

View PostHockeyDon, on 25 March 2019 - 10:12 AM, said:

Stop suspecting. It's absolutely a fact.

If the liability studies they conduct showed a money savings by replacing the head-rest with a hatchet in the face of the liability, public perception, and, you know, death, they would do so. It's all bottom line with many of those types.

A lot of safety "things" are up for ridicule by certain "conservative" groups. (I suspect its from lawyers' groups)

My BIL once ridiculed the interlock Audi had to install to keep (morons) from starting their standard cars in gear. I just asked him what he would think if his daughter had gotten hurt by someone who did that.

Full disclosure: I've done that plenty of times, Fortunately, I can't do it on the Vette.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

Rev Martin Luther King Jr.


Obamacare took my guns away and put me in a FEMA reeducation camp.

Anonymous

If you've got public schools paid for by taxpayers, you're in a socialist nation. If you have public roads paid for by taxpayers, socialist nation. If you've got public defense (police, fire, military, coast guard) paid for by tax dollars, socialist nation. If you're in a nation that has nationalized or localized delivery of services that are not paid for by users alone, you're in a socialist nation- the only question is how socialist. As I see it, we have the military pay to protecting the shipping lanes for our fuel needs which makes up very socialist. In a capitalist nation, the people supplying the oil would pay for their own defense force.


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#40 HockeyDon

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 02:58 PM

View Postandydp, on 25 March 2019 - 02:46 PM, said:

A lot of safety "things" are up for ridicule by certain "conservative" groups. (I suspect its from lawyers' groups)

Oh, I'm sure.

That specific example was from a mechanical engineer working in the auto industry. Not the guys doing fancy car design stuff, but rather the mundane bits that are important to a good functioning vehicle. His rant stemmed from an improvement that was shot down because it would cost an extra $0.13 to build the car, even though it resulted in a better 'quality of life' for the end user.
Well, fuck.

How can I be expected to distinguish BS from reality when so much of my reality is utter BS?!

"There seems to be a lot of people dying of ignorance while living in the information age." my sister-in-law.





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