Jump to content


MMT - Modern Monetary Theory


113 replies to this topic

#21 George Rowell

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1260 posts
  • LocationIn Perth now

Posted 27 February 2019 - 10:15 AM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 27 February 2019 - 09:32 AM, said:

Timing is everything. Essentially, every other developed country instituted some form of universal health care back when it was a rounding error in their national budgets -- before it got expensive. After that, the choice between having the tax man collect the bills or having some unaccountable intermediaries taking 20-30% (each) off the top to get less coverage was rightly seen as insane.

The USA did it as a tax dodge in WWII: with wage caps on labor in a super-tight labor market, the only differentiator that companies could use to differentiate themselves was benefits, and thus employer-paid health insurance. Once established, it became incredibly hard to root out, and is to this day. That was the real point of Obama's "keep your insurance:" it wasn't targeted at individuals, it was aimed at employers, unions, etc. -- those same intermediaries that are so uniquely American and which contribute so much to our impossibly expensive, inefficient, and incomplete [1] "system."

Thus my disdain for the "revolutionaries:" this is not going to be a wave of the hand overnight conversion.

[1] You can take my Oxford commas from my cold dead keyboard!
I am beginning to understand the history a bit better now. Never simple.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#22 George Rowell

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1260 posts
  • LocationIn Perth now

Posted 27 February 2019 - 10:18 AM

View Postandydp, on 27 February 2019 - 09:38 AM, said:

"Not quite make it" is American speak for "you can find something better". Chamomile Tea is just so grandmotherly. (Though great grandma had some good times with the cocaine cough syrup)
My Palexia do not do much for my nerve pain but they do send me to sleep :)
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#23 George Rowell

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1260 posts
  • LocationIn Perth now

Posted 27 February 2019 - 10:26 AM

View PostRich T Bikkies, on 27 February 2019 - 07:06 AM, said:

I'm only picturing the chaise longue. I've never clapped eyes on the man (peace be upon him!), or heard his voice.

I've just checked. I drink the camomile tea I buy in Morrisons supermarket (their own brand) and it's spelt that way on the packet. So there! What's your next riposte? That Morrisons are common as muck 'cos they drop their aitches?
Sorry rich T. I just checked my Twining tea. That is spelled Camomile tea too. Damn!

Just checked wiki. It is my American keyboard/spellchecker. I have gone American. Sad day. I promise I will spell it camomile from now on.

Chamomile (American English) or camomile (British English)
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#24 D. C. Sessions

    I don't have to pretend to be an adult any more

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 12113 posts
  • LocationCentral New Mexico

Posted 27 February 2019 - 10:39 AM

Fair's fair -- I use a Brenglish spell checker. It's part of the localization and comes along with sensible date and time conventions.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#25 George Rowell

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1260 posts
  • LocationIn Perth now

Posted 27 February 2019 - 10:44 AM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 27 February 2019 - 10:39 AM, said:

Fair's fair -- I use a Brenglish spell checker. It's part of the localization and comes along with sensible date and time conventions.
That is it. It also helps with clients who all use American English. I am really peeved because I have been waiting patiently to pounce on a Rich T spelling mistake. Now it has all backfired badly. But stiff British uppers. Another chance will come along, wait and see.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#26 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 39962 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 27 February 2019 - 10:54 AM

When they are talking about debt and the attendant service on that debt it's important to note that this cost is already climbing fast due to Republican tax cut and spend policies.

Quote

The interest on the debt was $253 billion in 2008. It consumed 8.5 percent of the FY 2008 federal budget. In 2009, it declined to $187 billion because interest rates fell. The yield on the 10-year Treasury note is given in the table below as an example.

As a result, the interest on the debt only consumed 5.3 percent of the FY 2009 budget, even though the debt rose to $7.5 trillion. From 2009 to 2016, it remained below $250 billion even though the debt almost doubled. The debt grew because public spending skyrocketed and revenue plummeted. The recession is the reason why President Obama created the most debt of any president.

Interest on the 10-year Treasury remained below 3 percent until 2018 thanks to strong demand for U.S. Treasurys. Interest rates are projected to rise above 3 percent in 2019, according to the Office of Management and Budget.

They are expected to increase to 3.7 percent by 2025. By then, the interest on the debt will be $688 billion, and take up 12.5 percent of the budget.

" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#27 George Rowell

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1260 posts
  • LocationIn Perth now

Posted 27 February 2019 - 10:59 AM

View PostLFC, on 27 February 2019 - 10:54 AM, said:

When they are talking about debt and the attendant service on that debt it's important to note that this cost is already climbing fast due to Republican tax cut and spend policies.
Looks like crunch time.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#28 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 39962 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 27 February 2019 - 11:40 AM

View PostGeorge Rowell, on 27 February 2019 - 10:44 AM, said:

But stiff British uppers.

Did you just say something dirty?
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#29 HockeyDon

    Mind blown...

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4083 posts
  • LocationNew Britain, CT

Posted 27 February 2019 - 01:50 PM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 27 February 2019 - 10:39 AM, said:

Fair's fair -- I use a Brenglish spell checker.

I just use my gray matter.

:ph34r:
And there was much rejoicing. Yay.

How can I be expected to distinguish BS from reality when so much of my reality is utter BS?!

#30 andydp

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5529 posts
  • LocationUpstate NY near Albany

Posted 27 February 2019 - 01:59 PM

View PostLFC, on 27 February 2019 - 11:40 AM, said:

Did you just say something dirty?

I think that would then be called a "lower". (I know its only Wednesday) <crickets>
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Rev Martin Luther King Jr.

Obamacare took my guns away and put me in a FEMA reeducation camp
Anonymous

If you've got public schools paid for by taxpayers, you're in a socialist nation. If you have public roads paid for by taxpayers, socialist nation. If you've got public defense (police, fire, military, coast guard) paid for by tax dollars, socialist nation. If you're in a nation that has nationalized or localized delivery of services that are not paid for by users alone, you're in a socialist nation- the only question is how socialist. As I see it, we pay the military pay to protect the shipping lanes for our fuel needs which makes us very socialist. In a capitalist nation, the people supplying the oil would pay for their own defense force.
DC Coronata

“I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.”

Margaret Thatcher


(Select anyone who gets blind loyalty from followers/voters) "...is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life."(Manchurian candidate)



"I can't go out because of the virus" sounds whiny and boring. I'm going with: "I've sworn an oath of solitude until the pestilence is purged from the lands." because it sounds more valiant and heroic. As a bonus, people might think you're carrying a sword.

FB posting


Its theorized if you put enough monkeys together with typewriters, eventually they'll write Shakespeare. But first, they write Trump speeches.

FB Posting



Calumny is only the noise of madmen. — Diogenes


When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff. Marcus Tullius Cicero


What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.

Donald Trump

"... I will tell you that the future of this country has never been better."
Pres Donald J Trump, Joint Base Andrews 1/20/21


I get it. They had a guy ratf**k the post office. They filled the courts with hacks. They spent a ton of money. They filed so many lawsuits. They even started a riot ! It’s so unfair that they went to all that trouble and still lost. Anonymous

#31 D. C. Sessions

    I don't have to pretend to be an adult any more

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 12113 posts
  • LocationCentral New Mexico

Posted 27 February 2019 - 02:14 PM

View PostGeorge Rowell, on 27 February 2019 - 10:44 AM, said:

But stiff British uppers.

Sounds uncomfortable. I prefer GoreTex, personally.
The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#32 J-CA

    Probably in one of my drunken stupors..

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4768 posts

Posted 27 February 2019 - 06:34 PM

Quote

“Taxing the super rich at 70 or 80 percent is good in itself, because those people have too much money and are screwing up the world with it. But you don’t need it to fund an agenda.”
MMT aside this strikes me as obviously true. All the "gold encrusted" food you hear about, ridiculous luxuries of all sorts, become way more expensive when you have to convert $1.70 to income from your vast wealth for every $1 you want to spend of super-yachts and the like.
Someone, somewhere, once pointed out to me that the large estates in the Great Gatsby were turned into ordinary residential land after the gilded age in part because of tax changes that made holding those large estates impractical no matter how wealthy you were. I don't know if that is accurate but it seems right and obviously a good thing for New York & Long Island. The tax system should be such that 1/10 acre at $1,000,000 an acre means homes for lots of people is incentivized by the economy over a 15 acre estate for some rich dude with 15 servants.
I am the burrito until someone hands me to a philosopher.

#33 J-CA

    Probably in one of my drunken stupors..

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4768 posts

Posted 27 February 2019 - 06:49 PM

Also to cite Bruenig's article:

Quote

..the bulk of MMT discourse is not really about what the best policy instruments are for maintaining price stability and debt stability, but rather about using word games to make people believe that the US can have Northern European levels of government spending without Northern European levels of taxation.
This begs the question with respect to "Northern European" anything and policy goals. People in the US can have Canadian levels of provisioned services and union membership because Canada has roughly the same level of taxation as the US, all one actually needs is a shift in policy and priorities. Why fuss over how to pay for policies that will never be enacted when you already have the base to take care of achievable incremental changes that will make things a lot better?
As such if everyone's belief in MMT were completely disingenuous that would be of no consequence! Something to consider!
I am the burrito until someone hands me to a philosopher.

#34 LFC

    Fiscal Conservative

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 39962 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 27 February 2019 - 06:51 PM

View PostJ-CA, on 27 February 2019 - 06:34 PM, said:

Someone, somewhere, once pointed out to me that the large estates in the Great Gatsby were turned into ordinary residential land after the gilded age in part because of tax changes that made holding those large estates impractical no matter how wealthy you were.

My wife and I recently toured the famous and massive Breakers mansion in Newport, RI built by one of the Vanderbilts. They said something to that effect in the audio tour.
" 'Individual conscience' means that women only get contraceptives if their employers, their physicians, their pharmacists, their husbands and/or fathers, pastors, and possibly their mayors, Governors, State Secretaries of Health, Congressmen, Senators, and President all agree that in that particular case they're justifiable." --D.C. Sessions

"That's the problem with being implacable foes - no one has any incentive to treat you as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome."

"The 'Road to Serfdom' is really all right turns." --Progressive Whisperer

""The GOP ... where every accusation is also a confession." --Progressive Whisperer

#35 George Rowell

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1260 posts
  • LocationIn Perth now

Posted 28 February 2019 - 02:05 AM

View PostLFC, on 27 February 2019 - 06:51 PM, said:

My wife and I recently toured the famous and massive Breakers mansion in Newport, RI built by one of the Vanderbilts. They said something to that effect in the audio tour.
Same things happened here. The charming village of Edenbridge in Kent, where I used to live, was owned by the famous Gladstone family and was simply given away to the tenants. Felicity Gladstone is now the only Gladstone who lives in Edenbridge (at least close enough) surrounded by momentos, Oxford boat race oars and paintings and still does humanitarian work in her nineties.

It is quaint, but to this day if you address your letter to Felicity Gladstone, Edenbridge, Kent, she will still get it. She has never owned a computer, or opened an email in her life so it is the only way too.

Nice rich people still exist.
A doctor knows a little about a lot. A specialist knows a lot about a little. In time the doctor knows less and less about more and more and the specialist knows more and more about less and less until ultimately the doctor knows nothing about everything and the specialist knows everything about nothing.

#36 AnBr

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 16173 posts

Posted 28 February 2019 - 02:45 AM

View PostJ-CA, on 27 February 2019 - 06:34 PM, said:

Quote

“Taxing the super rich at 70 or 80 percent is good in itself, because those people have too much money and are screwing up the world with it. But you don’t need it to fund an agenda.”

MMT aside this strikes me as obviously true. All the "gold encrusted" food you hear about, ridiculous luxuries of all sorts, become way more expensive when you have to convert $1.70 to income from your vast wealth for every $1 you want to spend of super-yachts and the like.
Someone, somewhere, once pointed out to me that the large estates in the Great Gatsby were turned into ordinary residential land after the gilded age in part because of tax changes that made holding those large estates impractical no matter how wealthy you were. I don't know if that is accurate but it seems right and obviously a good thing for New York & Long Island. The tax system should be such that 1/10 acre at $1,000,000 an acre means homes for lots of people is incentivized by the economy over a 15 acre estate for some rich dude with 15 servants.

This gets back to the reasoning of TR when he advocated a steeply progressive inheritance tax. Inherited wealth is detrimental, even destructive to societies.
“Trump’s a stupid man’s idea of a smart person, a poor man’s idea of a rich person & a weak man’s idea of a strong man.”

— Fran Lebowitz


“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

— Carl Sagan


Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#37 D. C. Sessions

    I don't have to pretend to be an adult any more

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 12113 posts
  • LocationCentral New Mexico

Posted 03 March 2019 - 07:31 AM

Matt Bruenig money quote:

Quote

Advocates of Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) say that we should understand all government spending as being funded by seignorage.... This then allows them to say things like 'taxes don’t fund spending' and other bumper-sticker type slogans that mostly just confuse people.... This seems like a tedious rhetorical exercise.... Whether taxes are needed to 'fund spending' or 'offset the inflation caused by seignorage' is in the eye of the beholder, but either way of saying it still concedes that taxes are necessary.

The way a lot of catastrophes happen is that X doesn't occur because there are safeguards in place, therefore people assume X isn't a worry and they remove the safeguards. Then X happens.
— Nate Silver
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#38 Rich T Bikkies

    Trainee Basil Fawlty. Practising Victor Meldrew

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5539 posts
  • LocationBirmingham, UK

Posted 03 March 2019 - 09:08 AM

Right. MMT would appear merely to add one more link to the chain joining the taxpayer to the tax-funded project.

Now, in an unrelated incident, why not try arranging these words into a well-known phrase or saying:

"a angels dancing head number of of on pin the"?
Reality is a hallucination caused by alcohol deprivation. Unknown.

Only Satan can rebuke sin. The righteous don't know enough. Rudyard Kipling

God is not dead. He was merely voted out of office. Unknown.

You can do anything with anybody if you just save them the trouble of thinking. Rudyard Kipling

People don’t believe in ideas: they believe in people who believe in ideas. Ze’ev Mankowitz

#39 Traveler

    Rambling Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 14020 posts
  • LocationPhilly Area

Posted 03 March 2019 - 09:24 AM

BB had a really long article about a response to Krugman by an MMT proponent. Too long for me to wade through intelligibly, but some of you here might be able to parse it for us economically illiterate.
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."-- Winston Churchill
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices" Voltaire

#40 Rich T Bikkies

    Trainee Basil Fawlty. Practising Victor Meldrew

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 5539 posts
  • LocationBirmingham, UK

Posted 03 March 2019 - 01:00 PM

View PostTraveler, on 03 March 2019 - 09:24 AM, said:

BB had a really long article about a response to Krugman by an MMT proponent. Too long for me to wade through intelligibly, but some of you here might be able to parse it for us economically illiterate.

A kiddies' guide, please. An idiot kiddies' guide if I'm to have any chance of understanding it.

I've always hated economics. Hated, hated, hated, hated, hated it. Hated it.
Reality is a hallucination caused by alcohol deprivation. Unknown.

Only Satan can rebuke sin. The righteous don't know enough. Rudyard Kipling

God is not dead. He was merely voted out of office. Unknown.

You can do anything with anybody if you just save them the trouble of thinking. Rudyard Kipling

People don’t believe in ideas: they believe in people who believe in ideas. Ze’ev Mankowitz





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users