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AOC does her thing. Triffic!


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#1 Rich T Bikkies

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 06:50 AM

James Corden tweets AOC, loving it. So do I
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#2 AnBr

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 10:32 AM

If only she weren't a Puritopian. A little mentoring from Pelosi could turn her into a real force.
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#3 Rich T Bikkies

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:23 AM

View PostAnBr, on 08 February 2019 - 10:32 AM, said:

If only she weren't a Puritopian. A little mentoring from Pelosi could turn her into a real force.

Is that second cousin to a Berniebro?
Reality is a hallucination caused by alcohol deprivation.

Only Satan can rebuke sin. The righteous don't know enough.

God is not dead. He was merely voted out of office.

You can do anything with anybody if you just save them the trouble of thinking.

#4 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 09:14 PM

There is a lot to be said for a party having a noisy wing -- if nothing else they make good lightning rods.

I suspect that Ocasio-Cortez is playing a part endorsed (if not publicly) by Pelosi: she says the things that the Party can't take responsibility for, but that are quite popular or otherwise serve a purpose. A warning, for instance. A lot of what she says polls very, very well and that lets the rest of the Party act conservative -- in a Burkean sense -- while moving in that direction. Also making the Republicans look bad by slamming popular ideas as "UnAmerican."
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#5 AnBr

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:00 PM

View PostRich T Bikkies, on 08 February 2019 - 11:23 AM, said:

Is that second cousin to a Berniebro?

First. they are ones that tear liberals apart if they are perceived as not being 100% in lockstep with the Puritopians world view, even if the difference is just in how to get there only for pragmatic reasons. They scream "(S)he's no real progressive!!!" if the object of their disdain says affordable college instead of 100% free. I suspect that this is egged on by the Russians as furthering their attempts to divide the left. In other words, they are useful idiots and tools.
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#6 baw1064

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:20 PM

View PostD. C. Sessions, on 08 February 2019 - 09:14 PM, said:

There is a lot to be said for a party having a noisy wing -- if nothing else they make good lightning rods.

I suspect that Ocasio-Cortez is playing a part endorsed (if not publicly) by Pelosi: she says the things that the Party can't take responsibility for, but that are quite popular or otherwise serve a purpose. A warning, for instance. A lot of what she says polls very, very well and that lets the rest of the Party act conservative -- in a Burkean sense -- while moving in that direction. Also making the Republicans look bad by slamming popular ideas as "UnAmerican."

Somebody needs to start shoving the Overton window in the other direction.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#7 JackD

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 12:05 AM

The polling, however, also shows misgivings when particulars are included as in Medicare for all.

#8 baw1064

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 12:40 AM

View PostJackD, on 09 February 2019 - 12:05 AM, said:

The polling, however, also shows misgivings when particulars are included as in Medicare for all.

So the compromise centrist position is now to allow a buy-in for Medicare for anyone not covered by a health plan from an employer or spouse.

In other words, the "public option" which was originally proposed as part of the ACA, but was shot down pretty quickly.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#9 AnBr

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 12:50 AM

So, you are no true progressive!
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#10 baw1064

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 04:40 AM

View PostAnBr, on 09 February 2019 - 12:50 AM, said:

So, you are no true progressive!

No, I'm really not. That said, I rather like AOC, while often disagreeing with her. She makes some valid points which can't be dismissed out of hand.

Anyway, the point of shoving the Overton window is to move what's perceived as the median position, not to get the most extreme position enacted. So if a marginal tax rate of 70% (although what's more relevant for high net worth individuals is the marginal rate on long-term capital gains) is now the edge of the Overton window, then maybe something more reasonable like 40% may be seen as a reasonable compromise.
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#11 D. C. Sessions

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 08:37 AM

View Postbaw1064, on 09 February 2019 - 04:40 AM, said:

Anyway, the point of shoving the Overton window is to move what's perceived as the median position, not to get the most extreme position enacted. So if a marginal tax rate of 70% (although what's more relevant for high net worth individuals is the marginal rate on long-term capital gains)

There's plenty of Reagan on taxing all income -- in particular capital income -- the same. For a brief interval in the late 80s and early 90s, there was no special capital gains rate. Then Congress discovered that if capital income didn't get special treatment people would quit being rich or something and started slashing the rate again.
"Robots aren't the problem. Capitalism is." -- Last words of Stephen Hawking.
These days, "libertarian" is just a euphemism for a Nazi who's afraid to commit.
"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention." -- Heather Heyer
"I'd rather have my child, but by golly, if I gotta give her up, we're gonna make it count." -- Her mother
"Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events." -- some RINO

#12 AnBr

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:57 AM

View Postbaw1064, on 09 February 2019 - 04:40 AM, said:

No, I'm really not.

It was a joke in reference to the Puritopians.
Pray for Trump: Psalm 109:8

"Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time - when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers arc in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

— Carl Sagan
The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
1995


“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

— H.L. Mencken
On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe


“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

— Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Second inaugural address January, 1937

#13 HockeyDon

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 07:08 PM

View PostJackD, on 09 February 2019 - 12:05 AM, said:

The polling, however, also shows misgivings when particulars are included as in Medicare for all.

Do you have any details concerning this?

I only ask because of the disingenuous way polling questions are often asked.

The example that comes to mind might be something like this:

Do you support higher taxes to pay for Medicare for all?
vs.
Do you support Medicare for all if it means taxing the very rich in order to pay it?

There zero chance the people framing these questions don't know that putting "support higher taxes" at the beginning of the question doesn't influence the result. That people aren't immediately turned off by hearing "higher taxes" because they imagine it means higher taxes for themselves.

While I think polls can be important and useful, they're also highly susceptible to corruption due to the slightest alteration in the way the question is asked.

I remember back to the "Do you support Obamacare?" polls and how they didn't take into account people that didn't like it because it was too conservative.
Well, fuck.

How can I be expected to distinguish BS from reality when so much of my reality is utter BS?!

"There seems to be a lot of people dying of ignorance while living in the information age." my sister-in-law.

#14 baw1064

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 08:39 PM

View PostHockeyDon, on 09 February 2019 - 07:08 PM, said:

Do you have any details concerning this?

I only ask because of the disingenuous way polling questions are often asked.

The example that comes to mind might be something like this:

Do you support higher taxes to pay for Medicare for all?
vs.
Do you support Medicare for all if it means taxing the very rich in order to pay it?

There zero chance the people framing these questions don't know that putting "support higher taxes" at the beginning of the question doesn't influence the result. That people aren't immediately turned off by hearing "higher taxes" because they imagine it means higher taxes for themselves.

While I think polls can be important and useful, they're also highly susceptible to corruption due to the slightest alteration in the way the question is asked.

I remember back to the "Do you support Obamacare?" polls and how they didn't take into account people that didn't like it because it was too conservative.

Do you support the government making your health insurance illegal, and raising your taxes so they can take over the entire healthcare system?
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss

#15 JackD

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 08:39 PM

There's a February 9 article in the Washington Examiner discussing one such poll and how results vary depending on what details are included and I've seen a number of articles over the last few months to the same effect. I agree with your observations about how the results can be influenced but I would also observe that the devil is always in the details and the details are highly likely to influence results. For example, Bernie Sanders' proposal includes the prohibition of private or employer supplied insurance, but with no copays. Many who are already covered under employer plans will want to know the same things people did with respect to Obamacare; e.g. can I keep my doctor? Will my current prescriptions be covered? . . . and so forth.

eta: There's also the issue of what happens to those losing employer provided coverage whose taxes will be increased to support the single payer program but who may not receive the benefit of the premiums the employer used to pay. In other words, will the employer keep the savings of no longer paying premiums instead of increasing employee pay so that the net result to the employee is increased costs?

Details, details.

#16 HockeyDon

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 06:38 AM

View Postbaw1064, on 09 February 2019 - 08:39 PM, said:

Do you support the government making your health insurance illegal, and raising your taxes so they can take over the entire healthcare system?

Exactly!
Well, fuck.

How can I be expected to distinguish BS from reality when so much of my reality is utter BS?!

"There seems to be a lot of people dying of ignorance while living in the information age." my sister-in-law.

#17 Traveler

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 01:56 PM

Jack, one of the worst aspects of the employer payor model is that they get to deduct the premiums. Costs the treasury a cool 127Billion. Then they deduct that cost out the salary they pay you. What a great racket. Folks that have employer coverage are getting royally fleeced. As are the rest of us.
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#18 pnwguy

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 05:57 PM

View PostTraveler, on 10 February 2019 - 01:56 PM, said:

Jack, one of the worst aspects of the employer payor model is that they get to deduct the premiums. Costs the treasury a cool 127Billion. Then they deduct that cost out the salary they pay you. What a great racket. Folks that have employer coverage are getting royally fleeced. As are the rest of us.
If every employer was mandated by law to convert health insurance benefits to wages, the effect on employer taxes would be the same. Wages paid are equally a business expense. It’s the effect on employee taxable wages that would change. When I was self employed I could only deduct 50% of health insurance premiums from the schedule C. And that was a recent change in the past two decades I recall. It used to be zero.
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#19 LFC

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 09:14 PM

Looks like she's meme-worthy FWIW.

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#20 baw1064

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 10:16 PM

View Postpnwguy, on 10 February 2019 - 05:57 PM, said:

If every employer was mandated by law to convert health insurance benefits to wages, the effect on employer taxes would be the same. Wages paid are equally a business expense. It’s the effect on employee taxable wages that would change. When I was self employed I could only deduct 50% of health insurance premiums from the schedule C. And that was a recent change in the past two decades I recall. It used to be zero.

Viewing the whole problem more holistically, it makes no sense that companies should be in the business of providing their employees with health insurance. To use a favorite right wing meme of comparing health insurance to car insurance, should employers buy you car insurance?
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” --Dr. Seuss





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